14:06:05 RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict 14:06:09 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-wcag2ict-irc 14:06:09 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:06:10 Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference 14:06:13 zakim, clear agenda 14:06:13 agenda cleared 14:06:19 chair: Mary Jo Mueller 14:06:28 rrsagent, make minutes 14:06:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom 14:06:36 agenda+ Announcements 14:06:42 agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation 14:06:48 agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled 14:07:02 regrets: Bruce Bailey 14:08:51 scribe+ 14:09:18 zakim, take up next 14:09:18 agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom] 14:09:19 loicmn has joined #wcag2ict 14:09:32 present+ 14:09:51 maryjom: Still trying to come up with our language, then will go to AGWG for broader review 14:10:00 ... Changes are needed in the EN anyway 14:10:09 present+ 14:10:13 Mike_Pluke: I could include anything that looks good 14:10:14 present+ 14:10:25 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:10:25 Present: GreggVan, loicmn, maryjom 14:10:39 maryjom: EU and other countries are changing their time this weekend. 14:10:56 ... For one week, the next meeting will be at 10AM Eastern, an hour earlier for those countries 14:11:33 ... The following week the U.S. changes time, things will sync up again 14:11:41 zakim, take up nexxt 14:11:41 I don't understand 'take up nexxt', Daniel 14:11:48 zakim, take up next 14:11:48 agendum 2 -- 1.3.4 Orientation -- taken up [from maryjom] 14:12:44 Link to issue 779: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/779 14:12:56 Link to PR 780: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/780 14:13:20 Link to Google doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BDPEaI93GIN3iqfWc2W1zH8Ott_3s80Fdq1W0q46u4s/edit?usp=sharing 14:14:00 maryjom: Google doc contains several proposals that have been discussed 14:15:42 GreggVan: I just fixed one wrong thing that I had 14:16:06 ... We have the "designed to be" and it shouldn't be there 14:16:07 q+ 14:17:07 ack Daniel 14:17:34 Daniel: Change ipad to tablets, please. We don't use to do brands 14:17:38 GreggVan: Done. 14:18:45 POLL: Which proposal do you prefer? 1) The current PR 780, as-is, 2) PR 780 with Daniel’s proposed changes, 3) Gregg’s proposal, or 4) something else 14:20:50 Daniel: we should also fix spacing 14:21:35 GreggVan: Rist watch -- if you are writing it for it to be used while charging you should meet, other wise if you are writing it for normal use you wouldn't 14:21:45 3 14:21:51 3 14:21:51 3 14:22:03 3 14:22:36 Mike_Pluke: The text at the beginning of the example doesn't match with the last part of the requirement 14:24:27 GreggVan: Should be "is", we shouldn't talk about the future 14:25:30 ... If you are writing software for the watch not to be used for sleep mode, the hardware is only on one orientation. The software is never used ... it's correct that the two should match 14:27:13 maryjom: You previously had numbered examples, now I've moved them to bullets as they're easier to read 14:28:08 PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict 14:28:14 present+ 14:28:33 Apologies from me for my extremely tardy entrance... 14:28:50 Proposal 3 text: 14:29:06 Applying SC 1.3.4 Orientation to Non-Web Documents 14:29:06 This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.3.4, except for non-web documents that will never be displayed on hardware that is reoriented in typical use. 14:29:17 Example (Added) (for non-web documents): Examples of non-web documents that will never be displayed on hardware that is reoriented in typical use would be 14:29:17 a building directory that is only displayed on displays (of any type including tablets) that are all fixed to the wall in one orientation, 14:29:17 reports of results of a test that are displayed only on the screen of the testing device, and 14:29:17 the status report sent to the screen of a copy machine (but not the status report that would be sent to a web interface to the same machine). 14:29:31 Applying SC 1.3.4 Orientation to Non-Web Software 14:29:31 This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.3.4, except for non-web software that will never be displayed on hardware that is reoriented in typical use. 14:29:31 Example (Added): Examples of non-web software that will never be displayed on hardware that is reoriented in typical use would be: 14:29:43 software for a typical calculator that does not support screen re-orientation, 14:29:43 software menus and controls on a copier or other device that is not intended to be viewed in more than one orientation (but not any remote control software or app for the same device that runs on computers or mobile devices), 14:29:43 software on a wristwatch that is not intended to be viewed when the watch is not on the wrist, and 14:29:43 special applications such as software for displays around a building that will only be used on a known set of displays that are all permanently affixed in the same orientation. 14:29:45 Note (Added) (for non-web software) 14:29:45 See also the Comments on Closed Functionality. 14:32:16 DRAFT RESOLUTION: For SC 1.3.4, incorporate proposal 3 as shown in the minutes above. 14:32:20 +1 14:32:23 +1 14:32:29 +1 14:32:34 +1 14:33:27 RESOLUTION: For SC 1.3.4, incorporate proposal 3 as shown in the minutes above. 14:33:29 +1 14:33:55 scribe+ PhilDay 14:33:59 scribe- 14:34:00 zakim, next item 14:34:00 agendum 3 -- 2.4.2 Page Titled -- taken up [from maryjom] 14:34:03 Link to issue 627: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/627 14:34:15 PR 793: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/793 14:34:25 Google doc link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qFOc8cip3tKbH35XsxwYpZXxycLMhVgblbabg5V4UCY/edit?usp=sharing 14:34:32 Google doc has all the current proposals in 1 place 14:40:31 q+ 14:40:46 ack Daniel 14:40:52 Discussion about the use of "style" in proposal 3 14:41:05 Daniel: Attribute is also misleading - element may be more appropriate 14:41:22 q+ 14:41:47 Daniel: Could make it longer "title that is possible to be exposed to assistive technologies in the platform software" or some similar explanation. 14:42:16 q? 14:42:18 ack GreggVan 14:42:44 Q+ 14:42:48 GreggVan: Title of a movie fails WCAG. It does not always give title or purpose of the movie 14:43:13 ... It can't be style - in a PDF you would change the title attribute which is in the metadata. 14:43:29 q+ 14:43:38 ... Problems we have. 1) As long as the technology supports programmatically determinable title. 14:44:20 ... 2) Need to have it be page oriented otherwise we have other technologies (like SVG) which could have metadata, but that might never be useful for AT - it will never be read by others. 14:44:48 ... 3) Wherever we put this is not the name - as name does not automatically pass 14:45:02 q? 14:45:32 Originally it was talking about the title of the "window" - maybe it is more about the uniqueness of the label / title 14:45:34 q? 14:46:24 ack Mike_Pluke 14:46:49 Mike_Pluke: Agree with Daniel & Gregg - need to emphasise the programmatically determinable element / attribute. 14:47:10 ... If that is the case, then the information that is put in that is just the same as it would be for a single web page. 14:48:08 ... If AT can read the titles for non page oriented files like graphics - if it can, then we should lose this as it is potentially confusing 14:48:10 q+ 14:48:12 ack Daniel 14:48:54 Daniel: +1 to remove page oriented. If we want to exclude SVG and others then that is less broad than any non page oriented. 14:49:17 q? 14:49:19 ... WCAG does not define title as being programmatically determined. 14:49:30 ... This may therefore be an underlying WCAG question. 14:50:23 As long as you can read the title with AT - then it passes even if the title doesn't have meaningful topic or purpose - it just describes the title, doesn't need a synopsis. 14:50:35 ack GreggVan 14:51:01 GreggVan: Now back to the beginning of the discussion - whatever the author decides to name it - that passes 14:51:14 Daniel: Describe the topic or purpose 14:51:38 GreggVan: A name like "Z" does not desribe the topic or purpose 14:52:22 ... Maybe all we are saying is that if there is a title attribute then it must be populated - and that will therefore pass 14:53:11 q? 14:53:56 web pages have a title that describes either a topic or purpose. Doesn't specify what is meant by topic or purpose 14:53:57 The only reference we have to non-valid titles in WCAG is failure F25 (https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Techniques/failures/F25). Given that, if the title of a movie is "Z", and the programmatically determinable title is "Z", then it should pass. 14:55:33 GreggVan: Could say it needs to be programmatically determinable, and then add name, topic or purpose 14:56:31 q+ 14:56:36 ... Could say name, title or purpose. Then we could leave the underlying issues to WCAG3 to fix 14:56:43 ack Daniel 14:56:46 ack Daniel 14:57:56 Daniel: +1 to the idea of programmatically determinable - but maybe not the words. 14:58:50 GreggVan: Didn't say programmatically determinable for title of web page - as it was self explanatory. That's not the case for non-web software or documents 14:58:59 q+ 14:59:03 q? 15:00:09 GreggVan: Think that saying name, title or purpose would be a suitable fix 15:01:14 Mary Jo has been trying to modify the language based on the discussion. 15:01:28 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is page-oriented and is implemented in a format that provides a "Title" metadata attribute which is exposed to assistive technology and is editable using the primary authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 15:01:52 q+ 15:01:56 q? 15:02:45 ack Daniel 15:03:32 Daniel: prefer to keep the "which is exposed to assistive technology" or determinable to be exposed to AT - to cover the future 15:03:49 GreggVan: Programmatically determinable is defined already 15:04:04 +1 to programmatically determinable 15:04:05 Proposal 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is page-oriented and is implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" metadata attribute nd is editable using the primary authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 15:04:27 s/ nd / and / 15:05:11 Proposal 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is page-oriented and is implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" metadata attribute and is editable using the primary authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 15:07:32 GreggVan: You need to be able to add the title in the primary tool - you shouldn't need to use an obscure metadata tool 15:10:00 ... Maybe say in common authoring tools 15:10:09 Daniel: prefer to say common or usual 15:11:32 2.4.2 Non-web Document Titled: Where a non-web document is page-oriented and is implemented in a format that provides a programmatically determinable "Title" metadata attribute and is editable using common authoring tools for that document format, the non-web document has a title that describes the name, topic, or purpose. 15:11:37 Latest proposal pasted abovee 15:11:41 s/abovee/above 15:12:35 Daniel: Still need a WCAG2ICT style - not the EN style that starts with the precondition. 15:14:07 Introductory paragraph has been updated 15:15:02 Proposal 3. 15:15:02 This success criterion is problematic to apply directly to non-web documents through simple word substitution because not all document formats provide support for a programmatically determinable ”Title” attribute, and document titles don't always describe the topic or purpose of the document. File names, as the WCAG 2 Understanding document 15:15:02 allows, also rarely describe the topic or purpose of the document – especially where the document names are not under the author’s control. However, where the document authoring tool or technology provides the capability to supply title metadata or name for a document, such as page-oriented publishing tools and word processing applications, 15:15:02 when the non-web document utilizes the “Title” attribute to provide a unique title or name inside of each document, and/or when a meaningful file name can be supplied, the user can more easily find it or understand its purpose. This would address the user needs identified in the Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.4.2. The following 15:15:03 q+ 15:15:04 criterion is recommended as a substitute for the WCAG language: 15:15:34 GreggVan: Would like to keep page oriented in there to avoid people having to name photos & other non-page oriented files 15:15:55 ack Daniel 15:16:56 Daniel: Worried about the requirement for page oriented - workaround would be to make something pageless - then you would not need to meet the requirement 15:20:02 Daniel: Another option might be to give very specific examples instead of saying page oriented. 15:20:23 GreggVan: Could we say textual document instead of page oriented 15:20:33 Daniel: That excludes everything that is not textual 15:23:02 Daniel: Again suggested specific examples of things that should be excluded. 15:23:23 GreggVan: Agree that we change page oriented - and suggested textual documents as an alternative, or do we want to cover other types of document 15:24:08 scribe+ 15:24:51 +1 to remove "page oriented". Movie and image file formats may have metadata and when it happens then 2.4.2 applies 15:25:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:25:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay 15:29:57 loicmn has left #wcag2ict 15:31:09 Mary Jo: We will meet tomorrow at the same time to try to resolve Page Titled. 15:31:56 Mike: We could potentially reapply this SC to non-web software using similar language to what is proposed for non-web documents. 15:32:17 Gregg: Yes, by adding "name" the name of the software would suffice. 15:48:00 zakim, end meeting 15:48:00 As of this point the attendees have been GreggVan, loicmn, maryjom, PhilDay 15:48:02 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 15:48:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim 15:48:10 I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 15:48:10 Zakim has left #wcag2ict 15:48:20 present+ Daniel 15:48:28 present+ Mike_Pluke 15:48:35 rrsagent, make minutes 15:48:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom 15:49:11 rrsagent, bye 15:49:11 I see no action items