16:00:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
16:00:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-irc
16:00:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdf-star
16:00:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:00:35 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
16:00:44 <TallTed> meeting: RDF & SPARQL WG
16:01:19 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/10/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:19 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/10/30-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:25 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:26 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e5234c80-4c06-4c6b-af43-c78a1dbd390a/20251023T120000/
16:01:29 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:01:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/10/16-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Dependency graph of our specs -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/179
16:01:29 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
16:01:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Horizontal Reviews, last feedback on questionaire -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/180 -> 5 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/181
16:01:32 <agendabot> agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
16:01:55 <ora> present+
16:01:58 <ora> chair+
16:02:00 <ktk> regrets+ pchampin
16:02:05 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF & SPARQL WG -- 2025-10-23 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e5234c80-4c06-4c6b-af43-c78a1dbd390a/20251023T120000/
16:02:10 <TallTed> present+
16:02:13 <ktk> regrets+ olaf
16:02:18 <doerthe> present+
16:02:22 <lisp> present+
16:02:36 <doerthe> scribe+
16:02:42 <ktk> present+
16:02:43 <AndyS> present+
16:02:44 <gtw> present+
16:02:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:03:31 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
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16:04:18 <niklasl> present+
16:04:22 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:04:22 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/10/16-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:28 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:04:35 <tl> present+
16:05:19 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes?
16:05:23 <ora> +1
16:05:24 <AndyS> +1
16:05:25 <gtw> +1
16:05:25 <TallTed> +1
16:05:27 <doerthe> +1
16:05:28 <ktk> +0 (absent)
16:05:29 <niklasl> +1
16:05:31 <lisp> +1
16:05:38 <tl> +0 (absent)
16:05:44 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes?
16:05:54 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:54 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Dependency graph of our specs -> 2 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/179 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:21 <AndyS> q+
16:06:39 <ora> ack AndyS
16:06:40 <doerthe> ora: we discussed this in the chair meeting, pa made a dependency diagram of our specs
16:07:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:07:20 <doerthe> AndyS: this raises the questions: in which way should be read the spec?
16:08:15 <doerthe> ora: There is one arrow which produced circles
16:08:29 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/250
16:08:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/250 -> Issue 250 Cyclic dependency between Concepts and Semantics (by pchampin)
16:08:33 <doerthe> AndyS: there is already a PR that fixes it
16:08:51 <doerthe> .. https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/250
16:09:07 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/251
16:09:07 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/251 -> MERGED Pull Request 251 remove normative dependency to Semantics (by pchampin)
16:09:15 <doerthe> ora: is there an actual PR?
16:09:24 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:09:35 <AZ> present+
16:09:49 <doerthe> AndyS: yes, https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/251
16:10:03 <lisp> the same gpt conversation that generated the detail graphs also include its reading of the documents : https://chatgpt.com/share/68f8c192-b3f8-8001-aef6-dcf471177b69
16:10:16 <ktk> q?
16:10:31 <doerthe> ora: so the normative dependency from concepts to semantics is removed, that serves the purpose
16:11:02 <doerthe> ktk: I think AndyS is right, that we should give some guidance to help people how to read the spec
16:11:29 <niklasl> Tangential, this is a good approach to write documentation (for different purposes): https://diataxis.fr
16:12:00 <doerthe> ora: Maybe the dependency graph can serve as a landing page. I think it is best to start with the primer.
16:12:17 <TallTed> q+
16:12:31 <doerthe> ora: I think we are OK with the normative dependencies now
16:12:34 <ora> ack TallTed
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16:12:58 <Souri> present+
16:13:15 <doerthe> TallTed: There were 3 issues flagged with the dependency graph and only one of these is solved.
16:13:35 <doerthe> ... maybe it is only the image?
16:14:06 <doerthe> ora: so the arrow from semantics to concepts is removed? But then there is still a cycle, right?
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16:14:44 <doerthe> .. or did I misunderstand that?
16:14:46 <Dominik_T> present+
16:14:56 <niklasl> See https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-semantics/#normative-references (RDF12-TURTLE is there)
16:14:57 <AndyS> q+
16:15:53 <doerthe> .. did the arrow from semantics to concepts removed?
16:16:24 <ora> ack AndyS
16:16:32 <fsasaki> present+
16:16:44 <Dominik_T> rrsagent, draft the minutes
16:16:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
16:16:51 <niklasl> Nothing to semantics now in https://w3c.github.io/rdf-concepts/spec/#normative-references (it's gone in the latests editors draft)
16:17:24 <doerthe> AndyS: I think it is not possible to break the cycle. The connection from concepts to semantics is rather weak, the link is just that the semantics is defined in semantics
16:18:05 <doerthe> ktk: so the solution is that there is not connection from concepts, right?
16:18:35 <doerthe> niklasl: the other dependency is removed, we should be fine
16:19:22 <doerthe> ktk: it is strange that n-triples depends on turtle, but I think that was for historical reasons
16:19:50 <doerthe> ora: I think that is the case and it can be explained
16:20:06 <doerthe> .. is it right that TriG does not depend on turtle?
16:20:25 <niklasl> This is the script PA made to do the analysis: https://github.com/pchampin/w3c-dep-graph/blob/main/gendot.py
16:20:47 <doerthe> AndyS: yes, there can be still non normative dependencies
16:21:28 <doerthe> ora: I think there are no technical problems, no cycles, so we can go on.
16:21:29 <ktk> 1?
16:21:32 <ktk> q?
16:21:35 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:21:35 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:22:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:22:42 <TallTed> s/1?//
16:22:46 <doerthe> ora: my task is done, but there is still an echidna issue
16:23:03 <doerthe> ktk: line item 1 and 2 can be closed
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16:23:14 <pfps> present+
16:24:23 <doerthe> ora: where are we with the owlification thing?
16:25:11 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:25:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Horizontal Reviews, last feedback on questionaire -> 4 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/180 -> 5 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/181 -- taken up
16:25:14 <doerthe> niklasl: I still need to get some feedback from pa, but everyone can already review, you find it in my repo
16:25:15 <Zakim> ... [from agendabot]
16:25:39 <doerthe> ora: can we close the dependency garph issue
16:25:56 <doerthe> ktk: I would like to wait for pa
16:26:18 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/252
16:26:18 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/252 -> Pull Request 252 complete description of the main changes (by pchampin)
16:27:32 <doerthe> AndyS: I think that issue #183 can also be closed, but we need to wait for pa
16:27:32 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/183 -> Action 183 add a summary of the main changes since RDF 1.1 in rdf-concepts (on pchampin) due 2025-10-23
16:27:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:28:03 <ktk> q?
16:28:21 <AndyS> s/183 can also be closed,/183 can be merged,/
16:28:29 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:28:29 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:56 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:29:32 <doerthe> ora: we discussed in the chair's meeting that we will submit the questionaire for all documents together and not separately (aggendum 4)
16:30:46 <doerthe> ktk: we should decide which document tackle next, turtle?
16:30:53 <TallTed> s/aggendum/agendum/
16:31:51 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/255
16:31:52 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/255 -> Pull Request 255 RDF Reference IRI (by afs)
16:32:17 <doerthe> AndyS: I made the PR https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/255
16:32:51 <doerthe> .. which fixes issues #223 and #169
16:32:52 <gb> Issue 223 not found
16:32:52 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> CLOSED Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:33:50 <doerthe> .. issues https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/223 and https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
16:33:51 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/223 -> Issue 223 RDF Reference IRI (by afs) [ms:CR]
16:33:51 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169 -> Issue 169 Relative IRI Reference should bind to the irelative-ref production (by gkellogg) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial]
16:34:15 <doerthe> ktk: .. and the turtle issue can be addressed afterwards?
16:34:22 <doerthe> AndyS: yes
16:35:12 <ktk> q?
16:35:15 <tl> q+
16:35:40 <doerthe> tl: AndyS, could you explain the relationship of the PR and the issue?
16:35:43 <ktk> ack tl
16:36:19 <doerthe> AndyS: It changes a production rule in the grammar
16:37:05 <doerthe> tl: but how does it relate to 169?
16:37:26 <doerthe> AndyS: are you looking at the correct 169?
16:37:46 <doerthe> tl: then it is clear, sorry
16:39:34 <doerthe> ktk: anything else to discuss?
16:40:21 <doerthe> ora: so turtle is what we tackle next, but also the other syntax specs
16:40:55 <doerthe> .. does the fact that there is nothing on rdf/XML on the list that everything is fixed there?
16:41:01 <niklasl> +1 that's my recollection too
16:41:17 <doerthe> AndyS: I think things are fixed there
16:41:38 <doerthe> ora: does that mean that it is ready to go?
16:41:48 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:41:48 <Zakim> I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, ktk
16:41:52 <doerthe> ora: we only need to contact jervan
16:41:59 <AndyS> agenda?
16:42:15 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/11
16:42:52 <doerthe> q+
16:43:05 <ora> ack doerthe
16:43:11 <ktk> scribe+
16:43:24 <ktk> doerthe: the old spec already contained a part where the interpolation lemma was in it.
16:43:36 <ktk> ... I will add it there
16:43:41 <ktk> scribe-
16:44:35 <ktk> q?
16:44:44 <ktk> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:45:13 <doerthe> ltk: we could discuss/review https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
16:46:44 <doerthe> ora: what about the missalignment of prefix handling, were are we there?
16:47:27 <doerthe> AndyS: I don't remember
16:47:49 <doerthe> ora: there are a couple of issues about turtle, what do we do with these?
16:49:04 <ktk> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/109
16:49:05 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/109 -> Issue 109 Ambiguous wording in section 2.11.1 Annotation Syntax (by jaw111) [spec:bug] [spec:editorial]
16:49:14 <niklasl> It
16:49:33 <niklasl> Its labelled editorial, which seems correct (it's about possible clarification).
16:49:44 <doerthe> ktk: could we check wether this issue needs our attention? https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/109
16:50:50 <doerthe> ora: I think we only need to add some clarifying text to fix it, do we think the text is needed?
16:51:42 <doerthe> AndyS: we cannot satisfy every single reader, so we have to be careful here
16:51:57 <doerthe> ora: I suggest to close the issue
16:52:50 <doerthe> TallTed: it might be that the person who posted it is not the only one having the problem
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16:53:53 <doerthe> ora: I propose that I review and then report
16:55:02 <doerthe> TallTed: the problem comes from the annotation syntax and the text about it, so I propose to rewrite the text, I will have a look whether I can come up with an improvement
16:55:30 <doerthe> ktk: most issues are on SPARQL, once the SPARQL spec is ready many issues here will be solved
16:55:49 <TallTed> s/annotation syntax and the text about it/annotation syntax and its text about reifiedTriple production/
16:56:04 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:56:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:56:11 <Dominik_T> to remember https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/65
16:56:11 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/65 -> Issue 65 update editor list (by domel) [spec:editorial]
16:56:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:57:12 <ktk> s/missunderstandings/misunderstandings/
16:57:12 <ktk> s/questionaire/questionnaire/
16:57:13 <ktk> s/garph/graph/
16:57:25 <ktk> s/the arrow from semantics to concepts removed/the arrow from semantics to concepts was removed/
16:57:35 <ktk> s/were are we there/where are we there/
16:57:43 <ktk> s/Its labelled editorial/It's labelled editorial/
16:57:43 <ktk> s/wether/whether/
16:58:16 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:58:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:59:47 <ktk> RRSAgent, leave
16:59:47 <RRSAgent> I see no action items