12:53:24 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:53:28 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-pmwg-irc 12:59:09 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:59:14 SueNeu has joined #pmwg 12:59:19 present+ 12:59:23 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 12:59:35 zakim, start the meeting 12:59:35 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:59:36 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:59:44 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:59:45 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle 12:59:52 kimberg has joined #pmwg 12:59:53 present+ 12:59:54 present+ 13:00:10 present+ 13:00:12 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 13:00:28 present+ 13:00:33 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 13:00:38 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 13:00:47 present+ 13:00:54 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 13:01:04 present+ 13:01:16 present+ 13:01:31 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 13:03:18 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 13:03:24 present+ 13:03:36 present+ 13:03:58 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 13:04:05 present+ 13:04:22 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 13:04:22 scribe+ 13:04:31 present+ 13:04:37 Topic: TPAC Agenda https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/discussions/2815#discussioncomment-14751130 13:04:40 TOPIC: Agenda for TPAC 13:05:16 wendyreid: I've put a link in the chat to a rough agenda, there are some openings. 13:05:38 Hadrien: We will do a full hour on HTML in EPUB? 13:05:52 wendyreid: yes 13:06:05 q+ 13:06:09 ack shiestyle 13:06:10 …we are trying to push things that need more people to the afternoons because of the time differences 13:06:23 shiestyle: after the business group meaning the first time slot 13:06:33 …I propose Japanese session 13:06:49 …Japanese industry group is moved to DPXPA 13:07:03 …we have EPUB 3 Guidelines 13:07:21 …that we have been working on for 10 years. It will be released tomorrow 13:07:29 …I would like to present it then 13:07:40 …the business group could join the working group 13:07:40 q+ 13:07:45 ack AvneeshSingh 13:08:16 AvneeshSingh: Pleases consider the accessibility schedule on the 10th 13:08:31 wendreid: thank you for the reminder 13:08:43 Topic: Images in Spine - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2792 13:08:51 …feel free to comment on the discussion in Github if you have more suggestions 13:09:06 q+ 13:09:09 present+ 13:09:12 ack duga 13:09:25 q+ 13:09:25 wendyreid: we've had a constellation of discussions about this 13:09:35 ack Hadrien 13:09:41 duga: what is the current proposal? Is it a PR or best practices 13:09:52 Hadrien: we've had more discussion than proposal 13:10:09 …the proposal would be to add images to the spine, it would be a 13:10:20 …strong recommendation to provide image description 13:10:41 …in comics we know that people wrap images in html and it causes nothing but pain 13:10:58 …we know that browsers can show images without html 13:11:10 …so it would be better to align with the web 13:11:35 q+ 13:12:10 ack mgarrish 13:12:20 mgarrish: I wonder where we are with HTML in the spine 13:12:30 …these two seem bound together 13:12:35 q+ 13:12:39 q+ 13:12:46 …if we can't have html in the spine, how can we have images in the spine? 13:12:59 won't it cause the same issues? 13:13:10 ack Hadrien 13:13:13 can we make this call before we know how the industry thinks of this? 13:13:31 Hadrien: I don't think these are necessarily connected since we are introducing a new kind of layout 13:13:55 …rolled documents will require support, so it isn't much more of a workload to support images 13:14:13 …we know that images have been used for quite a while, with fallbacks 13:14:20 ack duga 13:14:29 duga: that is an important part of this proposal 13:14:39 q+ 13:14:42 …images in spine but only for rolled documents? 13:15:15 Hardrien: that is one possibility but we should consider fxl 13:15:40 q+ 13:15:44 ack shiestyle 13:15:55 duga: so if we open it up to fxl we are opening it up to reflowable documents as well 13:16:10 shiestyle: we should separate the discussion about rolled comics and images in spine 13:16:30 ack wendyreid 13:16:33 …for Japanese this is good, better for comic over all, rather than just for rolled comics 13:17:00 wendyreid: @duga is right. Additionally, people aren't good at reading the spec 13:17:19 q+ 13:17:19 …even if we limit images in spine to rolled documents people will use them wher we want 13:17:47 …we should do it for all types of documents because we know that's how it will happen in practice. 13:18:03 …we've had discussions about full bleed images 13:18:24 …theoretically you could have fixed layout pages in a reflowable document 13:18:36 q+ 13:18:42 …this hasn't been seen often, but publishers have asked for it 13:18:54 ack DaleRogers 13:18:56 …this is another avenue for images in spine 13:19:26 DaleRogers: from a creator/publisher point of view, we want to be able to create one document for all reading systems 13:19:46 ack duga 13:19:49 …I would like to know that one document can be created and RS will know what to do with it 13:20:05 duga: I both agree and disagree with wendyreid 13:20:30 …people will be putting images in the spine, and epub check will complain 13:20:50 …people will then just change doctype to roll 13:21:02 …so we will see images popping up in weird places 13:21:19 …I disagree that this is easier than doing fxl in the middle of a reflowable document 13:21:41 …I think there's lots of designs out there that mix those and it's not easy to do 13:21:56 …fxl is much better for full bleed images 13:22:12 …in the middle of a relowable document an image could be made accessibile 13:22:14 q+ 13:22:31 …I don't think its any easier to have images in the spine than having mixed modes 13:22:45 …I would love to hear from other RS representatives 13:23:09 …it would be great to hear from them, this is similar to adding HTML 13:23:09 ack Hadrien 13:23:19 …where is the push back? Should we have a survey 13:23:36 Hadrien: we have discussed this with our members 13:23:48 …they believe this removes the guesswork 13:23:51 q+ 13:24:10 …they use BISAC to indicate something is a comic 13:24:19 q+ 13:24:28 q- 13:24:29 …we've heard from mulitple, some big names, that this would make things easier for comics 13:24:31 q+ 13:24:34 ack duga 13:24:50 i wanted to hear your comment first, brady 13:24:55 q+ 13:25:06 duga: I agree with Hadrien it is really annoying trying to guess that something is a comic 13:25:30 …but I'm not sure how this helps. Is adding an image to the spine mean an EPUB is a comic? 13:25:41 …even if we limit images to rolled documents 13:25:52 ack CharlesL 13:26:16 CharlesL: we had an fxl meeting, Ken Jones created a tool 13:26:33 …he will share it when we merge the fxl, comic and accessibility groups 13:26:51 …working with Colibre you can select regions in InDesign 13:27:04 …change the reading order, add in image and region descriptions 13:27:21 …the reading system was able to zoom in and speak the text on the page 13:27:39 …we should get Colibre to share what they are doing 13:27:54 ack kimberg 13:27:58 …Ken is doing interesting stuff with new features on a Harry Potter book series 13:28:48 q+ 13:28:51 ack Hadrien 13:28:52 kimberg: the idea of mixing comic and reflowable is terrifying, but adding images is not 13:29:34 Hadrien: I agree that it will make things harder, it would be easier than having to detect the HTML file 13:29:42 q+ 13:29:53 …checking for images is way easier 13:30:09 …because of historical content, we will keep this messiness for sometime 13:30:32 …what I've seen from Ken and Colibrio doing they are using region navigation 13:30:53 …interesting but doesn't have a bearing on our discussion here 13:31:12 …region navigation isn't incompatible with images in the spine 13:31:13 ack duga 13:31:39 duga: are you saying "images in spine are only used in comics" 13:32:03 q+ 13:32:10 …which is untestable. If I must use this as a key to determine if this is a comic 13:32:31 …I've seen lots of crazy fxl documents, I bet we will see more craziness 13:32:38 ack DaleRogers 13:32:58 q+ 13:32:59 Hadrien: agreed it is probably more for all illustrated content 13:33:03 q+ 13:33:04 q+ 13:33:21 DaleRogers: I guess in this case "comic" means that every page in the content is an image 13:33:29 …similar to Kindle Create 13:33:30 ack shiestyle 13:33:50 @shiestyle: I think if we add a new layout, comic, in addition to roll, we can 13:34:04 …only adopt the image in spine for both of thes 13:34:22 …we use fxl for comics in Japan but it is so different than manga 13:34:25 ack Hadrien 13:34:49 Hadrien: I wouldn't really do it that way. I think comics are files that have all images in spine 13:35:01 …we have spent a lot of time looking at edge cases 13:35:12 …we have made things difficult for years 13:35:22 …what we require people to do doesn't add value 13:35:36 …people have to guess, to go through rule sets to get what they want 13:35:40 q+ 13:35:51 …we will always find weird cases that require mixed modalities 13:36:06 …we are not helping the industries by focusing on these edge cases 13:36:15 ack duga 13:36:21 …we should address the huge number of comics out there 13:36:47 duga: we have solved the issue of front and backmatter by making them horrible and unreadalbe 13:37:04 …but our readers are used to that, so unfortunately we can ignore that case 13:37:23 q+ 13:37:45 …using the images in the spine to indicate that something is a comic is deceptive 13:37:59 …there are kids books that do this too 13:38:10 ack wendyreid 13:38:36 wendyreid: the current way to do comics is a bit more work, and automation exists 13:38:53 …its not hard to build comics with images inside html 13:39:20 …this will exist for a long time going forward because this is how people's workflow function 13:39:31 …and sometimes this causes issues with RS 13:39:52 …but from a User perspective this is transparent 13:40:13 …people will see that this is possible, and do it. 13:40:38 …we are making something easy just to make it easy without thinking about what is best for the user/reader 13:40:52 ack Hadrien 13:40:53 …we've been managing just fine all this time 13:41:14 Hadrien: I don't get your point. The fact is that the user experience isn't good 13:41:47 …its not true that adding bitmaps in spine will make things any worse for anyone 13:41:59 …people already produce things that way 13:42:07 q+ 13:42:22 …I have a hard time hearing how this will negatively affect accessibility 13:42:31 …or user experience 13:42:55 …I remember that we were very close from accepting images in the spine 13:43:04 …at the beginning of fxl spec 13:43:09 q+ 13:43:14 ack wendyreid 13:43:44 wendyreid: agree! about accessibility, I'm concerned about images in the spine 13:44:00 …if you distribute books to Europe they must be acceptable 13:44:12 …let's say we stick with fallbacks for this 13:44:21 …how do I signal that that is what I need? 13:44:33 q- 13:44:35 …how do I tell the reading experience to give me the image experience? 13:44:49 …we have to be careful about the security and privacy of users 13:44:59 q+ 13:45:19 …right now we don't have to worry about that with text imbedded in the HTML 13:45:30 ack Hadrien 13:45:34 …I'm concern about how we trigger the fallback 13:45:49 Hadrien: that would be true if all reading systems were using web view 13:46:05 …many reading systems simply extract the image 13:46:27 …even if you have the description, you might not be able to show this to the reader 13:46:34 q+ 13:46:51 …even if a reading system wants to be accessible comics, it can't 13:47:13 …allowing images in the spine won't make them less accessible, they already aren't 13:47:31 …we are conflating spec with legal requirements 13:47:40 …of course we should make accessible content 13:47:42 ack AvneeshSingh 13:48:16 AvneeshSingh: There is a default mechanism where HTML provides accessiblity even if the publisher doesn't 13:48:31 …in the new proposal, you are asking more of the reading system 13:48:56 …theoretically it can be aligned with accessibilty but it doesn't align with what is available now 13:49:16 …if these images in spine are used everywhere, things will get worse for accessibility 13:49:20 q+ 13:49:23 ack duga 13:49:49 duga: I sort of agree that we shouldn't conflate the spec and the legal requirements 13:49:49 q+ 13:49:59 …as long as we have the mechanism to do things 13:50:11 …we will still have inaccessible content 13:50:24 …right now if someone makes an accessible kids book 13:50:36 …it is an expensive process that can be read via a screen reader 13:50:55 …if they can do the same thing with images in the spine 13:51:25 …if I just take that image and see it in a web view, will it correctly extract that metadat? 13:51:48 …now we are putting a burden on the RS. If they get an accessible ebook 13:51:59 …but don't display it that way, it could lead to problems 13:52:05 ack Hadrien 13:52:30 Hadrien: You always have to consider who is doing what 13:52:42 …it isn't common for comics to work with web view 13:53:06 …having the metadata in a file might be easier than extracting it from HTML 13:53:32 …some people work with web views, but not everyone 13:53:48 q+ 13:53:50 …for everyone else, images in spine make life easier 13:54:01 ack duga 13:54:10 …this is probably the area with the most specialized reading systems 13:54:33 duga: Comics aren't going to be accessible, regardless of what we decide to do 13:54:45 …there are other kinds of content that will benefit from images in spine 13:55:12 q+ 13:55:36 … comics and kids books have very different kind of readers 13:55:45 …you don't want to mix those up 13:55:54 ack Hadrien 13:56:05 …there is a lot of illustrated content that isn't comics and still needs to be supported 13:56:37 Hadrien: some kids books still use images, but European regulators will say you can to better than that 13:56:50 …can we force people not to use images? 13:57:09 …I'm not sure I see the problem, as long as we provide a means for alt text 13:57:10 q+ 13:57:24 …it won't make the experience even worse than currently 13:57:36 ack duga 13:57:46 …we're not talking about technical issues, but best practices 13:58:27 duga: I think we are speaking technically 13:58:55 …if I can put the description in my image, as an implementor 13:59:10 …I now have two different accessiblity methods to support 13:59:18 q+ 13:59:29 …I don't think playbooks does anything for accessibliity in comics 13:59:34 ack wendyreid 14:00:02 wendyreid: I think if allow metadata in the image, you're going to need to build that 14:00:13 …and if it is html we can add semantics 14:00:25 …we can't do that with metadata 14:00:40 …the other thing, we have a lot of stake holders 14:01:05 …the person who makes the ebooks, the tools to make it, the distribution system, the vendors, and the readers 14:01:21 …we don't always put pressure evenly. 14:01:41 zakim, close the queue 14:01:41 ok, shiestyle, the speaker queue is closed 14:01:43 …we probably do want to have more of a discussion about what we expect from reading systems 14:02:28 …how do we do this that is easy for the reading systems and are secure for the readers 14:02:37 …but we don't talk about the tools. 14:02:55 …if we can make children's books accessible, we can make comics accessible 14:03:26 …we agree that the current state of fxl isn't ideal 14:03:37 …we need to spread the pressure more evenly 14:03:44 …we will continue this discussion 14:03:58 …next week we will meet with the business group 14:04:11 Shiestyle: this is a good topic for Kobe 14:05:00 zakim, make minutes 14:05:00 I don't understand 'make minutes', SueNeu 14:05:12 s/business group/APA/ 14:05:12 rssagent: make minutes 14:05:23 zakim, end the meeting 14:05:23 As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, duga, kimberg, SueNeu, shiestyle, MasakazuKitahara, wendyreid, DaleRogers, rdeltour, mgarrish, Hadrien, CharlesL, 14:05:26 ... AvneeshSingh 14:05:26 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 14:05:28 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim 14:05:34 I am happy to have been of service, shiestyle; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 14:05:34 Zakim has left #pmwg 15:03:42 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 15:25:38 CharlesL has left #pmwg