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14:49:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-pcg-a11y-irc
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14:49:26 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pcg-a11y
14:49:26 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:49:42 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:49:53 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:50:42 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Hazard examples repeat info in a summary: Issue #748
14:50:59 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Structural navigation doesn't match schema.org definition: Issue #746
14:51:15 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Joint meeting of PMWG and APA on Thursday, October 30, at 13 UTC.
14:51:29 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
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15:03:07 <George> George has joined #pcg-a11y
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15:03:21 <George> present+
15:03:25 <Madeleine> present+
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15:04:04 <mgarrish> present+
15:04:04 <gpellegrino> scribe+
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15:04:53 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: do we know when we'll be able to release the UX guidelines refactoring with placeholders?
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15:09:51 <gpellegrino> Charles: I'm checking the part I've updated
15:10:59 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: I've also implemented it in the metadata viewer
15:11:14 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I'll check the sync of the strings from the guidelines to the techniques
15:12:11 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:12:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Hazard examples repeat info in a summary: Issue #748 -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:12:42 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: Charles has already fixed it
15:12:48 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/748
15:12:58 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:12:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, AvneeshSingh
15:12:59 <gpellegrino> Charles: right!
15:13:39 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, agendum 1
15:13:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'agendum 1', AvneeshSingh
15:14:41 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:14:41 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Structural navigation doesn't match schema.org definition: Issue #746 -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:14:55 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/issues/746
15:15:29 <AvneeshSingh> fixed and closed
15:15:30 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: this has been fixed as well
15:15:54 <gpellegrino> George: this is about the guidelines on how to create accessible metadata, isn't it?
15:16:17 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: right, it's becoming the reference point for how to create accessibility metadata for ebook
15:16:54 <gpellegrino> ... we have to think if we want to add something about conformance
15:17:17 <Chris> Chris has joined #pcg-a11y
15:17:22 <gpellegrino> ... because we have it in the spec
15:17:30 <gpellegrino> ... EPUB Accessibility 1.1 spec
15:17:51 <Laura> Being new to this group, I'm not sure where the information that everyone is talking about needing review is. But I definitely think it's important to make sure that any explanations of metadata are actually clear and complete, having spent a lot of time attempting to understand what the different options are or what cases they apply to and finding
15:17:51 <Laura> the information confusing or missing vital information (especially in ONIX).
15:19:01 <gpellegrino> Charles: this whole document is non-normative, it's just guidance
15:20:03 <gpellegrino> George: is it a one-stop document with all information about accessibility metadata?
15:20:26 <gpellegrino> Charles: right, it should be a really useful tool for a lot of publishers
15:20:37 <gpellegrino> George: how long will it take to finish it?
15:20:55 <gpellegrino> Charles: technically it's finished, we need feedback from the community
15:21:38 <gpellegrino> George: maybe we can ask someone from BISG to check it
15:22:07 <Laura> I would very much like to read whatever this is, again, having spent a lot of time trying to understand what all the current documentation means and having to explain somethings to several people again and again because it is not intuitive (such as accessModeSufficient, which is deeply unintuitive).
15:22:39 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: Q1 2026 looks a good time to publish it
15:22:44 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:22:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Joint meeting of PMWG and APA on Thursday, October 30, at 13 UTC. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:23:32 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: this is really about PMWG, but the meeting is next week, we need to run
15:23:52 <gpellegrino> ... APA sent us an agenda about topics they want to discuss
15:24:06 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:24:09 <gpellegrino> ... what is missing is what PMWG want to discuss
15:24:32 <gpellegrino> ... at the moment I think the only item in the agenda is the Use Case document for Extended Descriptions
15:24:50 <gpellegrino> George: do we want to send the link to the document in advance?
15:25:03 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: Yes, we're waiting for the last feedback
15:25:04 <AvneeshSingh> Extended description use cases: https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-Current-Limitations
15:25:16 <gpellegrino> George: for me it's ready to go
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15:27:13 <gpellegrino> George: are we suggesting a DPUB ARIA role or a generic ARIA role?
15:27:27 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: I think we can discuss with them
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15:28:53 <Laura> I don't see why it wouldn't be something that could be available to the web as a whole. What would be the "problems" that doing it that way could cause?
15:29:00 <CharlesL> present+
15:29:24 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: there will be more people then APA chairs
15:29:35 <gpellegrino> ... so the discussion will be broader
15:31:00 <gpellegrino> Charles: there is a broken link
15:31:12 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: yes, to a paragraph we removed
15:31:21 <gpellegrino> ... we should remove it
15:32:45 <gpellegrino> CharlesL: maybe we can add a problem statement at the end, with the open questions
15:33:31 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I'll do it
15:34:40 <gpellegrino> George: on the web the summary/details solution works well, but still there is not information that it's an extended description
15:34:56 <gpellegrino> ... we should identify it as well
15:35:38 <gpellegrino> Laura: as a publisher, having the possibility to view extended description in a popup it would be useful
15:36:21 <gpellegrino> ... because with detail/summary field, we have to provide the extended description just below the image
15:37:12 <gpellegrino> ... and sometimes it's confusing, for use we need a way that is flexible in the user experience
15:37:38 <gpellegrino> ... and that the boundaries of the extended description are announced
15:39:06 <gpellegrino> George: is the container enough? Section or aside?
15:39:34 <gpellegrino> Laura: not really, screenreader stopped to announce the boundaries of these roles
15:40:25 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: also for TTS it would be interesting to announce boundaries
15:42:34 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: do we need to mention something about it in this document?
15:43:09 <gpellegrino> Laura: yes, I think we should add it
15:43:50 <gpellegrino> Charles: what if we add it to screen-reader users?
15:44:06 <gpellegrino> ... adding a bullet point
15:44:53 <gpellegrino> ... another thing: maybe we should stress the fact that we have publishers asking for these roles
15:44:56 <gpellegrino> q+
15:45:16 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:46:36 <gpellegrino> George: I'm concerned about web people, that do not want to let people go out the webpage in a separate one
15:48:10 <gpellegrino> Laura: right, that's why we need flexibility
15:48:42 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: I think we should be clear that we are not asking browsers to implement special UI/UX
15:49:03 <gpellegrino> ... but having the role can help in special UI/UX in EPUB reading systems
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15:50:06 <Hadrien> present+
15:50:20 <gpellegrino> q+
15:50:43 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:50:56 <Hadrien> q+
15:51:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:51:25 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: that's right, even for screen reader it's DAISY who advocated for DPUB ARIA roles
15:51:46 <gpellegrino> George: why not using aria-details?
15:52:15 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: reading system developer said having a declarative way it's much simpler to manage
15:52:39 <gpellegrino> Hadrien: right, the more the semantic is declarative, the better it's for us
15:53:38 <gpellegrino> ... it's true that we don't control screen readers, but we control TTS
15:54:04 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: maybe we can change the heading from screen reader users, to text-to-speec
15:54:59 <gpellegrino> mgarrish: yes, maybe we can say that this is an EPUB need
15:55:51 <Chris> q+
15:56:25 <gpellegrino> AvneeshSingh: gregorio is going to update it
15:56:31 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:56:31 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, AvneeshSingh
15:56:32 <Chris> https://pdfa.org/new-application-note-illuminates-pdfs-flexible-options-for-custom-metadata/
15:56:34 <CharlesL> ack Ch
15:57:17 <gpellegrino> Chris: AOB, the PDF Association has published a way to embed custom metadata in PDFs, like ONIX
15:57:28 <gpellegrino> ... for describing accessibility
15:57:30 <gpellegrino> q+
15:57:53 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:59:21 <gpellegrino> gpellegrino: I think we should update the principles document
15:59:44 <gpellegrino> ... for guiding implementers in use ONIX for PDFs
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16:00:12 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-pcg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
16:00:21 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:14 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
16:01:14 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, George, Madeleine, mgarrish, CharlesL, Hadrien
16:01:14 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pcg-a11y