13:43:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:44:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-i18n-irc
13:44:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #i18n
13:44:15 <addison> Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
13:44:21 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2958fbd0-8609-4d69-a040-ab7bd11bc6fb/20251023T150000/
13:44:21 <agendabot> clear agenda
13:44:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Agenda Review
13:44:21 <agendabot> agenda+ Action Items
13:44:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Info Share
13:44:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Review RADAR Review
13:44:33 <agendabot> agenda+ Pending Issue Review
13:44:33 <agendabot> agenda+ TPAC Planning
13:44:33 <agendabot> agenda+ AOB?
13:44:33 <addison> agenda+ DOM Localization
13:44:49 <addison> Chair: Addison Phillips
13:44:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:59:05 <jsahleen> jsahleen has joined #i18n
14:00:44 <Bert> present+
14:02:24 <addison> present+
14:02:34 <jsahleen> present+
14:02:36 <xfq> present+ Fuqiao
14:02:36 <Bert> scribe+
14:02:37 <JcK> JcK has joined #i18n
14:03:15 <JcK> present+ JcK
14:03:21 <Bert> andy: hello, I'm a new member,
14:03:38 <Bert> ... worked on a11y.
14:04:05 <addison> agenda?
14:04:06 <Bert> ... Am an Invited Expert.
14:04:16 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 1
14:04:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:04:19 <addison> agenda?
14:04:58 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 2
14:04:58 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:12 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues
14:05:23 <addison> #190
14:05:26 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/190 -> Action 190  add a comment to i18n issue 2039's parent to indicate interest and call for early review/engagement (on aphillips) due 2025-10-23
14:05:37 <addison> #189
14:05:38 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/189 -> Action 189  follow up with shane carr about ecma repo automation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-23
14:05:48 <addison> #187
14:05:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/187 -> Action 187  ping GOOG again for participation (on aphillips) due 2025-10-16
14:05:58 <Bert> addison: I followed up with Google folks
14:06:05 <Bert> ... Got conflicting feedback
14:06:21 <Bert> ... Some people interested, others too busy.
14:06:36 <Bert> ... Hoping f r a representaive soon
14:06:37 <addison> #185
14:06:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/185 -> Action 185  follow up with PLH on automating TC39 repos (on aphillips) due 2025-10-02
14:06:43 <Bert> s/f r/for
14:06:53 <addison> #135
14:06:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135  follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17
14:07:04 <addison> #33
14:07:05 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
14:07:19 <addison> #7
14:07:20 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023
14:07:28 <addison> #4
14:07:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023
14:07:35 <andy3> andy3 has joined #i18n
14:07:35 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 3
14:07:36 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:07:42 <andy3> present +
14:08:13 <Bert> JcK: Trying to fix an RFC, about NFC
14:08:56 <Bert> eemeli: I filed two TPAC break out sessions
14:09:08 <Bert> ... Introducing HTML <amount> element
14:09:39 <Bert> ... And another for talking about Henri Sivonen's English standard measures as a locale
14:10:11 <Bert> ... Maybe something to talk about in this group, too.
14:10:38 <Bert> addison: Sounds interesting.
14:10:51 <eemeli> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/71
14:10:52 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/71 -> Issue 71 Defining a new Locale: Standard Measures with U.S. English (by eemeli) [session]
14:10:53 <Bert> ... Did we talk about this earlier?
14:11:11 <Bert> eemeli: See ^^ for the session about the locale
14:11:49 <Bert> ... I want to go to CLDR and show that there is interest
14:12:20 <r12a> q+
14:12:29 <Bert> ... If we can show this is something generic, they will likely be more interested.
14:12:30 <addison> ack next
14:13:22 <addison> present+ Atsushi
14:13:45 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 4
14:13:45 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:55 <addison> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1
14:14:14 <Bert> addison: New incoming request
14:14:43 <Bert> ... Sustainability Guidelines
14:14:56 <Bert> ... Any takers?
14:15:08 <Bert> xfq: It looks like it is long...
14:15:47 <Bert> eemeli: 195 pages in print view...
14:16:12 <r12a> https://www.w3.org/TR/web-sustainability-guidelines/#use-optimized-and-appropriate-web-typography
14:17:17 <Bert> addison: I'll write back and ask for more time. One month with TPAC in it will not be enough.
14:17:38 <Bert> andy3: Mayeb also ask for a lower reading level, to make it easier to read.
14:17:40 <jsahleen> TPAC dates?
14:18:19 <Bert> <Bert> TPAC is 10-14 Nov
14:18:28 <xfq> 10–14 November, same week as UTW
14:18:39 <Bert> ... Will be easier for everybody and also for us.
14:18:49 <Bert> addison: We can ask that as an editorial comment.
14:19:04 <Bert> r12a: How did you determine the reading level?
14:19:19 <Bert> andy3: Just from experience and seeing the first few sentences.
14:20:06 <Bert> addison: They do have a plain-language summary, so maybe they are already aware of the issue.
14:20:31 <Bert> .. Do we want to split the work and have some people take separate sections?
14:20:48 <jsahleen> I can take a look if we have more time
14:20:54 <Bert> xfq: I can take a look and I encourage others to take a look, too
14:21:43 <Bert> addison: I'll make xfq the shepherd, but not the only reviewer
14:21:51 <Bert> jsahleen: I can take a part
14:21:56 <addison> action: addison: ask for more time on web sustainability guidelines
14:22:03 <gb> Created -> action #191 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/191
14:22:04 <Bert> andy3: I can look at user-experience aspects
14:23:49 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:23:49 <Bert> Bert: Halfway through color adjustment. No issues so far.
14:23:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:24:05 <addison> agenda?
14:24:45 <Bert> andy3: Question about the Sustainability Guidelines: Any specific reason i18n was asked for a review?
14:25:21 <Bert> addison: It is a ‘horizontal review’, we review everything as matter of principle.
14:25:49 <Bert> ... So bring i18n issues here, but a11y issues in the a11y review.
14:25:55 <atsushi_> https://www.w3.org/guide/documentreview/#how-to-get-horizontal-review
14:26:44 <Bert> andy3: This group also considers accessibility to global audiences?
14:27:08 <Bert> ... Is it just about being able to localize?
14:27:50 <xfq> See also https://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-i18n#answer
14:28:34 <r12a> and https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist#other
14:28:39 <Bert> addison: Any comments on a spec during a review are valid, but we focus on culture, language. Not really on cognitive level, assistive tech, etc. Even if the border between them can be blurry.
14:29:02 <Bert> ... Security is another aspect, typically not i18n.
14:29:23 <Bert> andy3: Simple language can help non-native speakers.
14:29:51 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:29:51 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- DOM Localization -- taken up [from addison]
14:30:12 <addison> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2025OctDec/0028.html
14:30:19 <Bert> eemeli: I sent email and submitted a TPAC breakout.
14:30:28 <addison> https://github.com/mozilla/explainers/blob/main/dom-localization.md
14:30:36 <addison> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/67
14:30:37 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/tpac2025-breakouts/issues/67 -> Issue 67 DOM Localization (by eemeli) [session]
14:30:38 <Bert> ... People probably haven't had time to look at it yet.
14:30:58 <Bert> ... Explainer for what DOM localization is.
14:30:59 <addison> q+
14:31:21 <Bert> ... Targeted of course at WHAT WG and HTML.
14:31:43 <addison> ack next
14:31:56 <Bert> ... It is about i18n and l10n, but the place it will be added is the DOM & HTML.
14:32:49 <Bert> addison: We can see if we have time today. We will talk about TPAC on the agenda.
14:33:08 <r12a> q+
14:33:13 <Bert> ... This group is not chartered to work on a specification.
14:33:44 <xfq> https://www.w3.org/guide/incubation.html
14:33:49 <Bert> ... If we want to write something ourselves, we'd need to think about a chnage to the charter,
14:34:32 <addison> ack next
14:34:40 <Bert> s/chnage/change/
14:35:10 <Bert> r12a: If this belongs in the HTML spec, that doens't preclude us working on it here.
14:35:19 <eemeli> q+
14:35:41 <xfq> +1 to r12a
14:35:43 <Bert> ... We've done that before, e.g., ruby (for CSS) and bdi (for HTML)
14:35:50 <jsahleen> +1 to r12a
14:36:20 <addison> ack next
14:36:29 <Bert> ... Would be useful for us, too. We'd learn more about DOM localization.
14:37:19 <Bert> eemeli: The HTML parts are one side, which need to go into HTML spec. But there is also a resource format side, maybe comparable to CSS, and separate from HTML.
14:37:54 <Bert> addison: Maybe we can schedule a time-limited intro now?
14:38:13 <Bert> eemeli: I can present something now.
14:38:34 <Bert> 10 minutes introduction
14:39:49 <Bert> eemeli: I want an external document to be able to define localization, independent of HTML, similar to how CSS defines style for HTML.
14:40:27 <Bert> ... We want something easy to use, sufficiently (but not extemely) powerful.
14:40:51 <Bert> ... Related to Message Format.
14:41:59 <jsahleen> Many development organizations handle localization as part of the build/bundling process. How would this work in that context?
14:42:00 <Bert> ... In <head> you can add a link to a style sheet. Should also have a link to a file for a locale.
14:42:11 <r12a> q+
14:42:26 <xfq> If a page is localized in 100+ languages, do I need to add more than 100 declarations in the head element?
14:42:52 <Bert> ... So you get an HTML that can get a message with a certain identifier and localize it.
14:43:01 <addison> not necessarily. think of it as "resource bundle for the web"
14:43:26 <Bert> ... Placeholders, maybe with simple tetx replacment, or more complex, like number formatting.
14:43:38 <Bert> ... Localization attributes.
14:44:19 <Bert> ... Everythign should also be accessible from JavaScript, for dynamic effects and integration with JS frameworks.
14:44:30 <Bert> ... This needs a file format.
14:44:41 <Bert> ... I think it needs to be a new format.
14:44:58 <Bert> ... Text format, modifiable by humans.
14:45:10 <Bert> ... So much if the work is defining that format.
14:45:29 <Bert> ... Building on Unicode and Message Format.
14:45:38 <xfq> I wonder if it is possible to do more fine-grained localization, such as localization of a web component (HTML custom element).
14:45:50 <r12a> andy,  best to join the queue by typing q+ here (rather than zoom hand up)
14:45:55 <Bert> ... Relies on understandings we gained at Mozilla for localizong Firefox, Thunderbird, etc,
14:46:04 <Bert> ... Experience with Fluent.
14:46:23 <Bert> ... Learned about pitfalls.
14:46:34 <Bert> ... Many open questions.
14:46:49 <Bert> ... Such as how to define the right resource to load, based on language.
14:47:23 <Bert> ... Or if a particular langauge diens't have a wanted message, but another one does.
14:47:58 <Bert> addison: That means there is some flexibility in the system?
14:48:20 <addison> q?
14:48:21 <andy3> It would be helpful to have concrete visual examples: the processes of various forms of localization  - how DOM localization would change those current processes
14:48:28 <Bert> eemeli: Concerns about which reosurces to load, over the network, possibly at high cost,
14:48:37 <Bert> ... Interfaces for fallback.
14:48:38 <addison> q+
14:49:02 <addison> ack next
14:49:12 <andy3> q+
14:50:05 <Bert> r12a: Interesting. It is more in l10n than we usually do. We did work on ITS before.
14:50:19 <Bert> eemeli: How active is ITS?
14:50:28 <Bert> addison: Not active at the moment.
14:50:43 <Bert> r12a: Just be aware of it.
14:51:15 <Bert> ... You need content negotiation, storage of information, and bringing it into HTML.
14:52:11 <Bert> ... I thought bringing stuff into HTML would be easy, but others seem to thing differently. So I find myself need to use JavaScript.
14:52:41 <Bert> ... We have, e.g., a system to bring in boilerplate text into articles.
14:53:07 <Bert> ... What kinds of text are you targeting? Is it like our boilerplate text? What is the scope.
14:53:26 <jsahleen> interface text
14:53:31 <Bert> eemeli: It is the sort of tetx that Unicode Message Fornat is also aimed at.
14:53:47 <Bert> ... But not opposed to other content, such as you described.
14:54:29 <Bert> ... For building pages out of resources there are tools and localization is usually not the blocking factor.
14:55:04 <Bert> ... Focus would be on shorter pieces of content, but longer is not excluded.
14:55:25 <Bert> ... Does it need new HTML elements?
14:55:29 <jsahleen> Security issues?
14:55:37 <xfq> Like the "Learn  Find  Ask  Follow  Participate  About" in https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist ?
14:55:51 <Bert> ... E.g., if all trnalsations need to have the same number of paras, that would be a restriction.
14:56:04 <Bert> s/trnalsations/translations/
14:56:54 <Bert> r12a: When you are not dealing with message formt-like things, it gets trickey. E.g., in the frenche translationof our articles, things are sometimes presented in a different order.
14:57:21 <addison> ack andy
14:57:28 <Bert> ... Provenance aspects: did a translation come from a  machine?
14:58:00 <Bert> andy3: A visual of the processes involved would help to understand it, a kind of workflow.
14:58:19 <Bert> eemeli: I'll have something prepared at TPAC.
14:58:36 <Bert> andy3: Can you share them also for those not at TPAC?
14:59:10 <Bert> addison: Some demo will help people understand.
14:59:28 <Bert> addison: TPAC planning:
14:59:41 <Bert> ... I'll prepare the wiki.
14:59:56 <Bert> .. I'll not be on site, but Fuqiao will.
15:00:16 <Bert> ... I have requested enough AV setup for dial-in participation.
15:00:34 <Bert> ... But time zone will eb a problem.
15:01:03 <Bert> ... If you have things for our ftf, send them to our public list and I'll include them
15:01:55 <Bert> Discussion about best time for Japan and West Coast.
15:02:13 <Bert> r12a: This telcon stays constant in UTC.
15:02:46 <Bert> s/UTC/Britain/
15:03:08 <addison> zakim, take up agendum 7
15:03:08 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:04:45 <bigbluehat> bigbluehat has joined #i18n
15:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:05:18 <addison> present+ Richard
15:05:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:05:38 <addison> present+ Eemeli
15:05:47 <addison> present+ Andy
15:05:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-i18n-minutes.html addison