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14:56:53 <Ian> Meeting: CG PRogram CG
14:56:57 <Ian> chair: Ian
14:57:28 <Ian> scribe: Dom
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15:03:49 <wolfgang7> present+ wolfgang
15:03:49 <cwilso> present+
15:03:57 <elf-pavlik> present+
15:04:04 <PeterR> present+
15:04:11 <fscholz> present+
15:04:18 <dom> Present+
15:04:30 <Ian> present+
15:06:00 <niklasmerz> present+
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15:06:07 <Ian> Topic: Round the table
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15:06:25 <tzviya> present+
15:06:28 <harsh> present+
15:06:36 <dom> Niklas: chair of WebView CG, helping making WebViews more interoperable
15:06:47 <dom> Wolfgang: Publishing CG, focusing on epub, ebooks and audio books
15:07:12 <dom> ChrisW: co-chair of WICG (catch-all incubator for a huge variety of specs) and immersive web xg (feeding immersive wg)
15:07:25 <dom> Elf: co-chair of Solid, provided input to linked web storage wg
15:07:38 <dom> Florian: co-chairs DocsCG with Lola, contributing to MDN Web Docs
15:07:51 <dom> harsh: co-chair of the Data Privacy & Controls CG
15:08:07 <dom> ... work a lot with legal staff, in other SDOs like ISO-CEN and IEEE
15:08:20 <dom> Peter: work for Natural Resources Canada, co-chair of MapML CG
15:08:34 <dom> Thomas: co-chair of WebAssembly CG
15:09:15 <dom> Tom: work for Google, co-chair of Games CG (improving the Web for Games) and co-chair of Loading Control API for Games CG, a new CG I'll be presenting on shortly
15:09:27 <dom> Tzviya: I'm the chair of the Positive Work Environment CG
15:09:47 <dom> Dom: co-chair of this CG
15:10:37 <dom> Topic: Expected content for this series of calls
15:11:08 <dom> Ian: want to get hear from CGs on a regular basis; we'll hear today about Web Games and I'll talk about considerations on transition to standardization
15:12:43 <tzviya> present+
15:13:07 <dom> Topic: Loading & Control API for Web Games CG
15:13:08 <tzviya> Tom: We have browsers, monetization co etc
15:13:31 <dom> Tom: Games CG has existed for a few years discussing the topic of games on the Web and its various apects e.g. monetization
15:14:03 <dom> ... more recently, we've identified a specific technical need where game createors need to create variations of their builds to match the need of different portals, up to 10 or 20 variations
15:14:37 <dom> ... all these portals share similar features - emitting events to notify the game is loading, space for video or rewards
15:14:57 <wolfgang7> s/createors/creators/
15:15:02 <dom> ... developers have to maintain compatibility with these many sdks; sometimes done in the game engnies, possibly through plugins
15:15:45 <dom> ... we've came up with the idea of this micro-API: methods commonly implemented across all these SDKs and integrate them in a way that would simplify the life of developers when distributing their games across portals
15:15:47 <wolfgang7> s/engnies/engines/
15:16:17 <dom> ... maybe covering ~80% of what these SDKs would cover, with room for extensibility
15:16:51 <Ian> https://www.w3.org/groups/cg/loading-control-games/
15:17:20 <dom> ... another example is portals exposing global mute buttons - this could too be communicated through this standardized sdk
15:18:05 <dom> ... already lots of good discussions, with a few portals represented (Google, Poki.com, Facebook) and independent games developers and game engine developers
15:18:31 <harsh> Ian: how is it going getting stakeholders in to the group? Have you known of any obstacles to get involved?
15:18:32 <dom> Ian: glad to hear good participation of stakeholders; any obstacles you're aware?
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15:19:17 <dom> Tom: none in particular; we've started a separate CG to keep the discussion focused, but maybe to the cost of splitting the community, trying to keep the Games CG aware
15:20:02 <dom> Tom: does anyone have thought on the approach we're taking? identifying these scenarios, and building on this micro-API?
15:20:19 <dom> ... not a browser API in this case
15:20:53 <Ian> Dom: I'm very interested in seeing what this group will manage to surface.
15:20:59 <Ian> ...this approach is a really interesting pattern
15:21:20 <Ian> ...it's not completely new; the RDF-JS CG is also developing an API for JS based libraries for parsing RDF
15:21:36 <Ian> ...it would be applied across libraries
15:21:41 <Ian> ...we had another API @@
15:21:53 <Ian> ...personally I think this pattern is currently underserved within w3c
15:22:21 <Ian> ...I'm not aware of any formal way to describe such an API, but it would equally apply to something like frames that embed video players
15:22:25 <Ian> ...or frames for maps
15:23:02 <Ian> tzviya: Lot of commonality with ebooks
15:23:47 <Ian> Tom :Games get fragile over time due to brittle relationship with portals
15:23:55 <dom> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RL4hTFJcuSGjeWNxzz3g2P7K8GyIx2YXX2XOZyuxSfs/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.jankgi9l5x99 Loading & Control API for Web Games Community Group Charter – “CoLo”
15:24:09 <dom> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jUzaEmhuBBvTSKy0g0_Fxpl7SSpkGiRIG-LdFtET9Q8/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.1cxagr7nhzln General “CoLo” Project Details
15:24:19 <Ian> tzviya: With ebooks I remember testing on many many platforms (27 or more)
15:25:01 <dom> Tom: the name of "control & loading" is not Games specific, could be used in other contexts
15:25:47 <dom> Ian: re brittleness, do you have ideas similar to what WPT allows for browser quality? e.g. test suite that could detect some of this brittleness
15:26:17 <dom> Tom: we had thought about a test harness for game developers outside of a portal; there may be more to explore, I'm not very familiar with WPT; Assisting game portals?
15:26:19 <dom> Ian: yes
15:26:55 <dom> Topic: Considerations when transferring a CG specification for standardization
15:27:06 <dom> Slideset: https://www.w3.org/2025/Talks/ij-transfer-20251022.pdf
15:27:51 <dom> [slide 2]
15:28:59 <dom> Harsh: an additional benefit is the legimitacy of being under the W3C umbrella
15:29:44 <dom> [slide 3]
15:31:01 <dom> [slide 4]
15:32:53 <dom> Peter: that's resonate with the Maps for HTML CG
15:33:21 <dom> s/MapML/Map for HTML
15:33:39 <dom> Peter: sometimes hard to gauge whether it's ready to go or if we should give up
15:34:10 <dom> Ian: part of our hope is that standardization plan gets discussed before a spec reaches significant traction
15:34:27 <dom> ... we can schedule a call to help break some of the blocking obstacles
15:35:13 <dom> ... we want to help groups have timely conversations on standardization when traction happens, with some tooling to help detect traction as we showed at the call last month
15:35:28 <dom> ... we've written a document to help guide CG chairs in thsis space
15:35:42 <dom> [slide 7]
15:37:37 <dom> [slide 8]
15:39:25 <dom> [slide 9]
15:41:41 <dom> Thomas: the WebAssembly CG has been solving this problem of WG-not-free by having the WG adopting the work of the CG, and that has worked amazingly for us
15:42:13 <dom> Ian: there can be concerns around rubberstamping; part of what I am doing in a separate project at W3C ("structural evolution initiative") is to look at how we can avoid to "faking" it
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15:42:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-cg-program-minutes.html fantasai
15:43:03 <cwilso> q?
15:43:09 <dom> Ian: part of the discussions on WebAssembly was also on how well our current process fits this particular ecosystem, e.g. on horizontal review
15:43:26 <cwilso> q+
15:43:35 <elf-pavlik> q+
15:43:39 <Ian> q?
15:44:12 <dom> ChrisW: I co-chair a paired CG/WG, and big CG that passes its work to many other groups, including WHATWG
15:44:32 <dom> ... a challenge of using a CG as a WG is twofold: getting IPR right (including at transition times)
15:44:56 <dom> ... another one is consensus - covered by the fact that the WG is accepting the CG's work
15:45:41 <dom> ... if cost is a barrier to WG participation, we should fix this - there are ways, e.g. invited experts can join for free
15:45:42 <Ian> https://github.com/w3c/cg-program/blob/main/proposals/continued-participation.md
15:46:49 <dom> Elf: from my experience since 15 years in CG, and as invited expert in the Social Web WG, coordinating work across different groups (CG & WG) is the most challenging part
15:47:29 <dom> ... e.g. in my experience there were at least 3 WGs working in the same space, which have now moved to 3 CGs
15:47:43 <dom> ... unless there is specific structure to keep groups in sync, it's really hard to make it happen
15:48:22 <dom> Ian: there are some pieces in place: TPAC, breakout days in the Spring; but also don't want to overwhelm with too many coordination meetings
15:48:42 <dom> ... this call may serve that purpose
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15:49:40 <Ian> Dom: Part of this coordination issue is finding right incentives and opportunities. Ian mentioned some but there might be ways to do them more systematically in WG land (e.g., chartering process and identification of dependencies)
15:49:46 <Ian> ...wide review can force some conversations
15:49:56 <Ian> ..maybe lightweight but similar could work for CGs.
15:50:01 <PeterR> q+
15:50:03 <Ian> ...CGs that need higher bandwidth between themselves
15:50:05 <Ian> ack cw
15:50:08 <Ian> ack elf-pavlik
15:50:29 <Ian> Dom: We've had high-level conversations about use cases and requirements as a phase
15:50:46 <Ian> q+ elf
15:50:49 <Ian> ack Pe
15:51:54 <Ian> zakim, close the queue
15:51:54 <Zakim> ok, Ian, the speaker queue is closed
15:52:01 <dom> Peter: I work in the Geospatial depart of Natural Resources Canada; besides being an AC Rep in W3C, we're  a strategic member of the open geospatial consortium, a similar org to W3C for geospatial standards
15:52:14 <dom> ... we also participate in ISO TC 211 (?)
15:52:30 <dom> ... and are represented in the UN Committee of Expert on Geospatial
15:52:37 <dom> ... and other standardization activities in Canada
15:53:04 <dom> ... Map for HTML CG arose from a joint OGC/W3C workshop convened in 2014, and gave rise to the Spatial Data WG
15:53:12 <dom> ... I also proposed the creation of a CG then
15:53:29 <dom> ... the intersection of geomatics and informatics is not fully standardized
15:53:42 <dom> ... in the CG context, we worked on gaining adherence and had some success that way
15:53:52 <dom> ... I do believe we're ready for a WG at this stage
15:54:12 <dom> ... when we started, I didn't know what a declarative approach to Map in HTML
15:54:32 <dom> Ian: let's follow up on this standardization plans separately to support the rest of the agenda
15:55:00 <dom> Elf: to facilitate synchronization, maybe a common set of curated tags for groups (e.g. linked data, idp)
15:55:15 <dom> Topic: Other news
15:55:20 <Ian> Web Identity and Credentials Adoption
15:55:20 <Ian> Authoring Tool Accessibility Guidelines CG
15:55:20 <Ian> Meta-Layer Infrastructure
15:55:20 <Ian> Data Façades
15:55:21 <Ian> Web Forensics
15:55:22 <Ian> Ontologies and Knowledge Graphs in Industry
15:55:23 <Ian> NLWeb
15:55:25 <Ian> Cybernetic Avatar Community Group
15:55:26 <dom> Ian: 8 new CGs created since our last meeting (see above ^)
15:55:55 <dom> ... slack channel #cg-program created
15:56:19 <dom> ... at TPAC, we're planning a CG chairs lunch on Wednesday with signed tables
15:56:40 <dom> ... we'll have a breakout session to continue discussion on CG spec enhancements
15:57:01 <dom> ... with beta-testing in respec/bikeshed planned post TPAC
15:57:21 <dom> ... and discussions on maintaining the relevant data and information
15:57:36 <dom> Topic: Next call
15:57:52 <dom> Ian: 2-months cadence?
15:58:00 <elf-pavlik> +1
15:58:02 <dom> [several +1 on Zoom]
15:58:09 <wolfgang7> +1
15:58:33 <dom> Ian: will try to schedule a call early December, incl post TPAC debriefing
15:58:55 <Ian> Dom: Feedback on the structure of this meeting and format welcome
15:59:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/23-cg-program-minutes.html Ian
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16:00:11 <Ian> RRSAGENT, set logs public