15:59:40 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #json-ld
15:59:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-irc
15:59:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #json-ld
15:59:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html TallTed
16:00:22 <TallTed> meeting: JSON-LD WG Meeting
16:00:30 <bigbluehat> chair: bigbluehat
16:00:55 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/10/15-json-ld-minutes.html
16:00:55 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/10/29-json-ld-minutes.html
16:01:01 <bigbluehat> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/04e937c0-e751-4c7e-9ba4-5782e0b3d272/20251022T120000/
16:01:01 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:01:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Announcements and Introductions
16:01:01 <agendabot> agenda+ JSON-LD Recharter Status
16:01:01 <agendabot> agenda+ New Co-Chair Proposal
16:01:01 <agendabot> agenda+ Gregg Kellogg Memorial
16:01:03 <agendabot> agenda+ Open Discussion
16:01:08 <bigbluehat> present+
16:01:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html TallTed
16:01:57 <TallTed> present+ anatoly-scherbakov, TallTe
16:02:05 <TallTed> present- TallTe
16:02:10 <TallTed> present+
16:02:16 <pchampin> present+
16:02:23 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #json-ld
16:04:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html TallTed
16:04:28 <anatoly-scherbakov> present+
16:06:18 <pchampin> scribe+
16:07:07 <pchampin> zakim, open item 1
16:07:07 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements and Introductions -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:07:36 <pchampin> anatoly-scherbakov: I wanted to summarize a mail thread including Benjamin, David & me
16:07:47 <pchampin> ... regarding the PyLD library.
16:08:20 <pchampin> ... A belgium organization is working on RDFlib, considering pluging PyLD in RDFlib.
16:08:35 <pchampin> ... They are hesitant because PyLD has not been maintained recently.
16:08:48 <pchampin> ... If Digital Bazaar is not interested in continuing maintaining it,
16:09:08 <pchampin> ... they could host it as an organization (under the umbrella of their RDFlib project)
16:09:15 <pchampin> ... or join the project as maintainer.
16:09:45 <pchampin> bigbluehat: that's great news. I'll reach out to Digital Bazaar, and come back to everyone.
16:09:59 <pchampin> ... PyLD needs a better home. It is not a priority for DB right now.
16:10:16 <pchampin> ... This looks like a good community for that.
16:10:20 <niklasl> q+
16:11:04 <pchampin> roger: we use Python a lot in our group, by not PyLD.
16:11:58 <bigbluehat> ack niklasl
16:12:42 <pchampin> niklasl: I think this is very promissing.
16:12:55 <pchampin> ... I tried to plug PyLD into RDFlib a while ago.
16:13:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html TallTed
16:13:12 <niklasl> https://github.com/niklasl/trld
16:13:14 <pchampin> ... I don't know the state of PyLD. I became a victim of NIH, so I use my own...
16:13:46 <pchampin> ... This was also a good way to understand the algorihms, which I transcribed literally.
16:14:34 <TallTed> s/promissing/promising/
16:14:41 <pchampin> ... I would not recommend its use for production, but it is licensed as @@ so copy/reuse at will.
16:15:12 <niklasl> License 0BSD
16:15:33 <pchampin> s/@@/0BSD
16:15:57 <pchampin> roger: re. RDFlib vs PyLD
16:16:12 <pchampin> ... we are a big research group (~60 people)
16:16:29 <pchampin> ... depending on the field people are from, they use R or Python
16:17:00 <pchampin> ... RDFlib in Python works the same way as in R, which is nice
16:17:15 <pchampin> ... we need reliable packages, we build big systems
16:17:37 <bigbluehat> agenda+
16:17:45 <pchampin> zakim, open next item
16:17:45 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- JSON-LD Recharter Status -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:18:10 <pchampin> bigbluehat: we (Ivan mostly) addressed some small issues
16:18:19 <pchampin> ... it has been quiet in the past week
16:18:23 <bigbluehat> scribe+
16:18:35 <bigbluehat> pchampin: the only missing review is from the Privacy group
16:18:43 <bigbluehat> ... Ivan reached out about the status and to get an ETA
16:18:59 <bigbluehat> ... I would be tempted to call for a time-out if we don't get it soon
16:19:07 <bigbluehat> ... we just describe the format, not what data
16:19:17 <bigbluehat> ... and we already have a privacy section
16:19:26 <bigbluehat> ... but there's nothing really critical in it
16:19:39 <bigbluehat> ... I'll check on the status, but I don't think it's blocking
16:19:54 <bigbluehat> ... The larger issue is that we need a redundant Chair
16:20:06 <bigbluehat> ... and it was recommended that we solve that before this goes to the membership
16:21:16 <pchampin> bigbluehat: I have some update about the chair, in the next agenda item.
16:21:26 <pchampin> ... +1 to declare a timeout on the privacy review.
16:21:34 <bigbluehat> Zakim, next item
16:21:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- New Co-Chair Proposal -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:21:53 <pchampin> i|New Co-|... If anything, the new features we are planning to add (caching in document loader) will *enhance* privacy.
16:22:32 <pchampin> bigbluehat: we briefly had Gregg as co-chair, while even then was ill-advice, as Gregg was already chief-editor of most specs
16:22:36 <pchampin> ... we don't want to reproduce that
16:22:47 <pchampin> ... [introducing Victor Lu]
16:23:15 <pchampin> ... Victor is new to the W3C process, but pchampin and ivan confirmed that this is not blocking, they will help him learn the ropes
16:23:35 <pchampin> ... we need him mostly as redundancy
16:23:41 <pchampin> ... he is +1 on that
16:24:19 <pchampin> q+
16:24:26 <bigbluehat> ack pchampin
16:24:33 <bigbluehat> pchampin: thanks! that's great news
16:24:36 <bigbluehat> q+
16:24:46 <bigbluehat> pchampin: his LinkedIn says he's at Oracle
16:25:05 <pchampin> bigbluehat: but he is not anymore
16:25:26 <frenchrh_> frenchrh_ has joined #json-ld
16:25:36 <pchampin> ... he is currently unaffiliated
16:26:22 <pchampin> pchampin: we can have him as an Invited Expert, no problem
16:26:30 <TallTed> present+ frenchrh_
16:26:42 <pchampin> ... it would be worse if he was affiliated with a non-member organization
16:26:45 <bigbluehat> Zakim, next item
16:26:45 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, bigbluehat
16:26:51 <bigbluehat> q?
16:26:53 <bigbluehat> ack bigbluehat
16:26:54 <pchampin> s/roger:/frenchrh_:/g
16:26:56 <bigbluehat> Zakim, next item
16:26:56 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Gregg Kellogg Memorial -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:27:14 <pchampin> bigbluehat: we started an email thread a couple weeks ago,
16:27:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html TallTed
16:27:33 <pchampin> ... proposing a eulogy for Gregg to be included in the spec
16:27:42 <pchampin> ... TallTed made some improvements
16:27:54 <pchampin> ... once I incorporate them, we will make a PR on the json-ld-syntax spec
16:28:05 <pchampin> ... we can then decide if we want to include them in the other JSON-LD specs
16:29:01 <pchampin> ... we can keep this JSON-LD specific or mention his work more broadly
16:29:24 <pchampin> ... we can discuss this in the PR when it is open
16:29:32 <pchampin> q+
16:29:48 <bigbluehat> ack pchampin
16:30:03 <bigbluehat> pchampin: thanks for initiating that
16:30:08 <bigbluehat> ... we can refine it on the PR, indeed
16:30:26 <bigbluehat> ... I'm in favor of it being on the 3 specs and the 1.1 published specs
16:30:48 <anatoly-scherbakov> +1
16:30:57 <bigbluehat> ... which I think makes sense as those would not be the same had he not been such an amazing contributor and editor
16:31:20 <pchampin> bigbluehat: the acknowledgement section is "robot-populated"
16:31:29 <pchampin> ... it should not be too hard to customize it
16:31:37 <niklasl> +1
16:31:55 <pchampin> ... as an aside, there has been some discussion about a kind of larger memorial
16:32:15 <pchampin> ... this should be done soon, but unfortunately I don't have the cycles
16:32:23 <bigbluehat> Zakim, next item
16:32:23 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Open Discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:32:26 <niklasl> Big thanks for moving forward on it.
16:32:51 <pchampin> bigbluehat: any other topic?
16:32:52 <pchampin> q+
16:33:01 <bigbluehat> ack pchampin
16:33:06 <pchampin> ... my current position is that we will soon be rechartered
16:33:30 <bigbluehat> pchampin: I wanted to mention the email that we from Sebastien with Web of Things (WoT)
16:33:37 <bigbluehat> ... we were going to have a joint meeting at TPAC
16:33:59 <bigbluehat> ... but since we are cancelled our meeting due to too few of us attending, we are also cancelling the joint meeting
16:34:09 <bigbluehat> ... interacting with the WoT group has always been interesting
16:34:24 <bigbluehat> ... so, I don't think we'll do a joint meeting at TPAC due to timezones
16:34:26 <bigbluehat> q+
16:34:47 <bigbluehat> ... but if there is enough interest for interacting with them, we can schedule something
16:34:50 <bigbluehat> ack bigbluehat
16:35:33 <pchampin> bigbluehat: we left it as you describe: most of us will not be there, and the timeslot in Japan is not easy
16:35:48 <pchampin> ... but most people in the WoT CG are in Europe, so we could easily organize a joint meeting at another moment
16:36:17 <pchampin> ... they could present what they do, what they need from JSON-LD
16:36:49 <pchampin> ... their perspective has always been interesting: they use JSON-LD to describe IoT things
16:37:16 <pchampin> ... those things themselves don't do a lot with compaction/extraction, but their description are aggregated in other systems
16:37:35 <pchampin> ... they lean heavilty on the graph nature of JSON-LD, as well as inference
16:37:59 <pchampin> ... If you are all ok with it, I will arrange the calendaring, probably post-TPAC
16:38:07 <anatoly-scherbakov> q+
16:38:11 <bigbluehat> ack anatoly-scherbakov
16:38:24 <pchampin> anatoly-scherbakov: talking with the WoT group would be interesting.
16:38:45 <dlehn> present+
16:38:52 <anatoly-scherbakov> ack
16:38:57 <pchampin> ... Re. TPAC, is there going to be anything about Gregg? There will be a lot of people from W3C, including from LD.
16:39:18 <pchampin> bigbluehat: I like the idea. We can reach out to the organizers of the major evening.
16:39:37 <pchampin> ... not a long thing, but a short memorial in front of everyone.
16:41:37 <bigbluehat> pchampin: I'm traveling soon, but I will help get this started over email
16:42:21 <bigbluehat> ... the conference I'll be at before TPAC is the Semantic Web Conference
16:42:43 <bigbluehat> ... and we're doing a tutorial there and will be giving a tribute to Gregg before that
16:43:07 <bigbluehat> ... the tutorial is on Sunday, the first day of the conference.
16:43:56 <pchampin> bigbluehat: dlehn, we talked about PyLD at the start of the call
16:44:12 <pchampin> ... I'm going to make a pitch internally to suggest we hand it over to the RDFlib group
16:44:21 <pchampin> dlehn: yes, I was the meeting notes
16:44:29 <pchampin> ... I got the email about that too
16:44:57 <pchampin> ... I don't know what to do with it. I wish I had more time to work on it. It's a change from JS.
16:45:57 <pchampin> ... But we have not many use-cases in Python, so this is not a priority
16:46:08 <pchampin> q+
16:46:33 <bigbluehat> ack pchampin
16:46:34 <pchampin> ... One of the thing I would like to do if I find time is to ensure all the tests work again.
16:46:56 <bigbluehat> pchampin: I'll have a look at that Erlang link :)
16:47:01 <anatoly-scherbakov> q+
16:47:02 <bigbluehat> ... I'm also a fan of Rust
16:47:14 <bigbluehat> ... and making a Python binding for a Rust library is relatively easy
16:47:26 <bigbluehat> ... and oxygraph is a Rust library which might be interesting to incorporate
16:47:36 <niklasl> q+
16:47:38 <bigbluehat> ... not sure it does JSON-LD, but there are other Rust libraries which do
16:47:59 <bigbluehat> ... though multiple implementations are good--so keeping PyLD around has it's own value there
16:48:05 <bigbluehat> s/oxygraph/oxigraph
16:48:21 <bigbluehat> dlehn: is that any different than a C++ bound library?
16:48:32 <bigbluehat> pchampin: the developer experience is much nicer
16:48:50 <bigbluehat> ... I was pleasantly surprised by how hard it is
16:48:55 <bigbluehat> s/hard/easy
16:49:00 <bigbluehat> q?
16:49:03 <bigbluehat> ack anatoly-scherbakov
16:49:22 <pchampin> anatoly-scherbakov: I second the point about Rust bindings, I suggested that in the email thread as an alternative
16:49:43 <pchampin> ... I also suggested niklasl's library
16:50:02 <pchampin> ... I concur that PyO3 to generate Python bindings for Rust library is really easy
16:50:15 <pchampin> ... it has also benefits in term of performance
16:50:23 <bigbluehat> ack niklasl
16:50:35 <pchampin> bigbluehat: if any of you mentioned something that's not on the json-ld website, send me a PR
16:51:15 <pchampin> niklasl: I wanted to ask about some discussions in W3C about how to specify algorithm is a kind of pseudo-language
16:51:27 <pchampin> bigbluehat: yes, this rings a painfull bell
16:51:58 <pchampin> ... there was discussion about the relevance of using WebIDL and/or INFRA in our specification, none of which is entirely satisfying
16:52:17 <pchampin> ... it is a non-trivial thing for us to update
16:53:07 <pchampin> ... I would need a very dedicated editor to refactor this, with a lot of time on their hand
16:53:32 <pchampin> ... TRLD is transpiling into Java and JS, I fiddled with the idea of transpiling it to spec text
16:53:38 <anatoly-scherbakov> q+
16:54:08 <pchampin> ... transcribing the JSON-LD algorithms to TRLD may be feasible
16:55:16 <pchampin> ... On another topic, I recommend Oxigraph, PyOxigraph (a dedicated python binding) and OxRDFlib (RDFlib adapter of the former)
16:55:36 <pchampin> ... there are some issues, but Thomas knows about them
16:55:37 <bigbluehat> ack anatoly-scherbakov
16:55:43 <pchampin> ... I also second the benefit of pure python implementations
16:56:11 <niklasl> q+
16:56:11 <pchampin> anatoly-scherbakov: did we ever thought of writing specs as linked data instead of free-form?
16:56:27 <pchampin> ... i'm not an ontologist, I don't know the answer. I suppose this would be a huge graph.
16:56:29 <bigbluehat> ack niklasl
16:56:32 <pchampin> ... Was it ever considered?
16:56:54 <pchampin> niklasl: I have thought of that, it was not my most healthy thought!
16:57:11 <pchampin> ... I do have a started for implementing a Turtle parser in Turtle.
16:57:21 <pchampin> ... I might put that in a gist.
16:57:49 <bigbluehat> q+
16:57:56 <pchampin> ... The algorithm description is currently very imperative.
16:58:07 <pchampin> anatoly-scherbakov: I agree, and that makes the description verbose.
16:58:23 <pchampin> ... Using a functional paradigm would make it more concise.
16:58:45 <bigbluehat> ack bigbluehat
16:59:08 <pchampin> bigbluehat: anatoly-scherbakov if you have any interest in getting an understanding of these algorithms,
16:59:37 <pchampin> ... we would be interested in your lights in moving away from INFRA (which was initially a request from the TAG)
16:59:53 <pchampin> ... More of us will have to contribute to whatever is next, it is worth a fresh set of eyes.
17:00:13 <pchampin> niklasl: I will spend from time this week on that idea.
17:00:29 <pchampin> ... Generatin INFRA from Python does not seem so hard.
17:01:21 <pchampin> bigbluehat: part of the argument was to be able to reuse the algorithms into other specifications
17:01:44 <pchampin> niklasl: Claude should be able to do that as well
17:02:02 <pchampin> bigbluehat: yes, the challenge would then be to determine whether it is correct
17:02:52 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:02:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html pchampin
17:03:22 <pchampin> <pchampin> my regrets for the meeting in 2 weeks
17:03:51 <pchampin> bigbluehat: we'll see how the chartering progress and maybe have a meeting
17:03:55 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:03:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html pchampin
17:29:00 <bigbluehat> Zakim, end meeting
17:29:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bigbluehat, anatoly-scherbakov, TallTe, TallTed, pchampin, frenchrh_, dlehn
17:29:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:29:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-json-ld-minutes.html Zakim
17:29:09 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, bigbluehat; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:29:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #json-ld
17:29:40 <bigbluehat> Zakim, end meeting
17:29:45 <bigbluehat> rrsagent, bye
17:29:45 <RRSAgent> I see no action items