17:08:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
17:08:37 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-aria-at-irc
17:08:37 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:08:38 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:08:39 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:08:42 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:08:42 <mmoss> mmoss has joined #aria-at
17:08:45 <jugglinmike> present+ mmoss
17:08:49 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
17:09:08 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
17:09:16 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:09:23 <jugglinmike> present+ elizabeth
17:09:29 <jugglinmike> present+ mfairchild
17:09:32 <jugglinmike> present+ james
17:09:37 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:09:46 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:10:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday November 17, but this is expected to change.
17:10:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Thursday October 30
17:10:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:10:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Perhaps checkbox?
17:10:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I didn't add checkbox because switch is already present
17:11:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: howard-e and carmen have previously requested topics, but we'll wait on those since they can't attend today's meeting
17:11:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing no further requests, we'll stick with the agenda as planned
17:11:46 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:12:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are six plans in "draft review" (though due to a clerical error on my part, it appears that there are only five)
17:12:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The "Switch with HTML checkbox" and "two-state checkbox" plans are ready for people to work on
17:12:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The spin-button example is coming up
17:13:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Automatic Activation
17:13:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll skip this topic because Hadi isn't present today, so it's down to IsaDC or me to resolve the conflicts. It should probably be me
17:13:41 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Manual Activation
17:13:53 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: There is a new version. I fixed some VoiceOver commands
17:13:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I took care of that
17:14:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: On the VoiceOver test plan, you merged a fix to test #2
17:14:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have the run by Joe_Humbert--it's complete now, except for test #2.
17:14:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll get test #2 by next week
17:15:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It is currently ready for Dean to tackle, though Dean isn't present today
17:15:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's it for VoiceOver
17:15:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We need to let Dean know that it's ready for him
17:15:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's look at the 5 conflicting NVDA results. These are conflicts between Joe_Humbert and Dean
17:17:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Starting with test #4: this is one where you both recorded the same output. However, you had different assertion verdicts
17:17:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So, "shift+tab". The mode switching one, dean was saying that it was working for him
17:17:54 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That could just be because I missed it. I'll have to double-check
17:18:18 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm guessing that I marked it wrong. I know that "shift+tab" generally changes the mode
17:18:31 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm guessing that I marked it "yes" on the previous test that was similar
17:18:41 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll change my answer after I double-check it
17:19:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It's weird that my browser version is listed as 99.0.4.8. I guess I'm just verifying the bot results. That's a very old version!
17:19:19 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Is that what the bot is running?
17:19:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I don't know
17:20:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Test #13 is another one where you both have the same output. Here, you reported a difference in negative side effects
17:20:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: "The tab panel boundary was ignored." And "the focus moved to the content of the tab panel"
17:21:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm curious about why you recorded that as a side-effects. Don't we have an explicit assertion for that? If the assertion fails, then we shouldn't need to track this with a negative side-effect
17:22:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It has been a very long time; I can't recall why. Generally, I report failures in this way when I want to make sure we discuss it here on this call, but I can't say for sure
17:23:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think dean's should be changed, here.
17:23:44 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Based on this, I'm kind of confused why it was not announcing the tab panel (or property page, in this case). I think it did for the tabs key, so I was confused why it doesn't do it for the arrow key
17:24:07 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That might be why I put a note in for the previous test--just to make sure I  wasn't missing anything
17:24:13 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The next two conflicts are the same
17:24:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's a part of me that is wondering... "Property page"--is that really...? I guess if you're an NVDA user...
17:24:53 <jugglinmike> mmoss: This reminds me of VoiceOver reading grids as labels
17:25:44 <jugglinmike> james: I think there's a fine line. We explicitly are not in the game of dictating what screen readers say. I would say that semantically, there is no such role within NVDA as "tab panel". If you search the source code for "tab panel", you won't find anything. They are treated as "property pages"
17:26:23 <jugglinmike> james: perhaps NVAccess assumed that if you are switching to NVDA to JAWS, you would be better served by familiar vocabulary (although JAWS has since changed their terminology)
17:27:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Instead of bringing NVDA up to date, we'll bring dean back in time and get aligned with NVDA
17:27:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So that's three of these conflicts
17:27:39 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The next two (for tab in both browse mode and focus mode), it's the same issue
17:27:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, so for the very first conflicts, you'll validate.
17:28:00 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: For the second, I'll remove the side-effect
17:28:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And for the next two, we'll have to talk with dean
17:28:22 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That just leaves test #15
17:28:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So this is "activate a tab in a tab list" and it's related to the space
17:29:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The output we reported does not match
17:29:53 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: If this is not an issue, I'm happy to go back and remove a negative side-effect
17:30:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For JAWS, we put a moderate side effect
17:30:12 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I reported it as severe, but I can change that
17:30:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, this is definitely moderate. It's just redundant speech
17:30:38 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Okay. I'll also re-test just to verify that it's still an issue
17:32:34 <jugglinmike> [Dean joins the call]
17:34:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In test #13, for "down arrow" and both of the "tab" commands, the word "property page" is in the output, and that is NVDA-speak for "tab panel". You marked it as failing for "conveying the 'tab panel' role"
17:35:42 <jugglinmike> dean: We both recorded the same thing. There's no "tab panel" in that output
17:35:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But the term "property page" is.
17:36:13 <jugglinmike> dean: Ah, okay. So I need to change all three commands to passing. I can do that
17:36:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then, in test #15, we would like you to re-run and check the output for the space bar
17:36:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert's output is showing that "selected" is showing multiple times
17:37:15 <jugglinmike> dean: I've seen that before elsewhere, so I'll check it again
17:37:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now I'm wondering if we actually want to record the negative side-effect for this one
17:37:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is tabs with manual activation, so pressing the space bar generates a state-change event: the tab goes from "not selected" to "selected". I guess NVDA is reading the result.
17:39:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James, I'm curious about your thought on this. What do we expect for a speech response in this case?
17:39:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You're pressing the space bar on a tab that's not selected
17:39:42 <jugglinmike> James: As an NVDA user, I would expect to hear the word "selected" (The change in state), and that's it
17:40:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, we can call it excessively verbose because after reading the state, it reads the name, the role, and the set again
17:40:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We only have one assertion here, and that is that the change in state is conveyed
17:41:01 <jugglinmike> james: There is a persistent issue in NVDA where, when you activate a tab, it reads the tab again
17:41:18 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: When I re-ran the setup for this test, it puts you into forms mode. You have to run the setup again
17:41:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's expected because it's a tab that receives focus
17:41:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm not hearing "select" a second time, so it might have just been the bot results
17:42:00 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll change my results
17:42:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, so Dean, you have nothing to do on test #15
17:43:14 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The left-arrow test still has all my results, but the shift+f keypress does not.
17:43:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know how that happened
17:43:33 <jugglinmike> dean: I changed my results for test #13, so I'm showing no conflicts, now
17:43:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, great
17:45:18 <jugglinmike> dean: I was seeing weird results, so I updated, and then, my results seemed accurate. But they still didn't match with the bot
17:45:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you unassign yourself, will that delete it?
17:46:00 <jugglinmike> Dean: That's how I did it before. I had completed only a couple tests, unassigned myself (wiping it), then started a bot run, and finally re-assigned the bot run to myself
17:46:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can do that again.
17:46:30 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: The bot is still behind (we still need to update it), but that seems like it isn't the issue here
17:46:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we collect using the bot at version 15.6.1, then if the bot results are accurate then you can just leave it
17:47:10 <jugglinmike> Dean: sure. It doesn't matter if we have the same version as long as we get the same results
17:47:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I just need to re-do the one test, correct?
17:47:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's right
17:47:55 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'll do that ASAP
17:48:48 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That just leave me to finish the JAWS test run. I'll do that later this afternoon
17:48:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Perfect
17:49:14 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running tests for Switch Example Using HTML Checkbox Input
17:49:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have three bot runs available, and we don't have any testers
17:49:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're looking for two volunteers for each screen reader
17:49:54 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll do VoiceOver
17:50:08 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: You can sign me up for all three. I'll have time for that over the next two weeks
17:50:30 <jugglinmike> dean: I can do NVDA eventually, but I have three test plan runs assigned to me already, so it may be a bit
17:51:20 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I can run one of these for switch.
17:51:40 <jugglinmike> mmoss: The test queue isn't loading for me at all. I'm getting a 502 Bad Gateway
17:51:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Same for me. It was loading correctly just a moment ago
17:52:21 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: We saw a 502 last week. It's loading for me right now, for what it's worth, though it is a little slow
17:52:40 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I'll file an issue for my team to look into offline
17:53:13 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I have access to all three screen readers
17:53:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we should assign you and Joe_Humbert to JAWS (because dean doesn't have access to JAWS)
17:53:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then we can have Joe_Humbert and dean on VoiceOver
17:54:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Then, for NVDA, we can wait and see who is ready first
17:54:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But we can't do that right now because the site is down
17:55:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that by next week, we'll have both "tab" plans done and we'll be working on "switch." Hopefully we can start working on "checkbox"
17:55:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that covers it. There is a lot more potential work in the automated-update space. Elizabeth finished one.
17:56:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you for completing the "action button" test plan with VoiceOver!
17:56:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, we have these other plans in the test queue. Do you have availability to work on one in the next week?
17:56:53 <jugglinmike> Elizabeth: yes, I saw that the "action menu button" is available in the automated updates tab, so I assigned myself to that.
17:57:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right, you did the "active descendants" one. If you would like to take the other, that would help
17:57:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The "command button" test plan for VoiceOver is showing up as a manual test run, but it was an automated test run...
17:58:07 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Please file an issue and we can take a look into it
17:58:18 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I'm filing an issue for the test queue performance
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17:58:36 <jugglinmike> dean: There was a big lag when I tried to assign it to myself. It wouldn't work at all
17:58:59 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: We have an issue for the lack of feedback when you reassign. That issue is still on our queue; we just haven't gotten to it, yet
17:59:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you everybody. We're making some great progress, and I appreciate all of it!
17:59:18 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
17:59:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, mmoss, Joe_Humbert, ChrisCuellar, IsaDC, elizabeth, mfairchild, james, Matt_King
17:59:20 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:59:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/22-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:28 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:59:28 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
17:59:29 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
17:59:29 <RRSAgent> I see no action items