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16:57:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/15-pdf-aam-irc
16:57:20 <Daniel> rrsagent, start meeting
16:57:20 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'start meeting', Daniel.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:57:40 <Daniel> Title: PDF-AAM Task Force Teleconference
16:57:53 <Daniel> zakim, start meeting
17:00:22 <Daniel> zakim, start meeting
17:00:38 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pdf-aam
17:00:45 <Daniel> zakim, start meeting
17:00:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:47 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Daniel
17:00:57 <Daniel> Title: PDF-AAM Task Force Teleconference
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17:04:01 <zkinsey> present +
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17:05:56 <Daniel> present+
17:06:02 <Daniel> zakim, who is on the phone?
17:06:02 <Zakim> Present: Daniel
17:06:11 <Paul> present+
17:06:12 <zkinsey> present+
17:06:17 <Daniel> present+ Zakk, Paul, Spectranaut, James Craig
17:06:45 <Daniel> github: https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/23
17:07:01 <Daniel> Topic: PD-Dom
17:07:08 <Daniel> github: https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/23
17:07:49 <Daniel> Zakk: Existing project that Matthew turn to me
17:08:12 <Daniel> Daniel: No specifics for today
17:08:24 <Daniel> Zakk: Just make editors aware of this
17:09:06 <Daniel> JamesC: Is it worth mentioning this in the readme?
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17:10:17 <Daniel> Topic: Alphabetize AAM entries
17:10:17 <Daniel> https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22
17:10:34 <Daniel> Topic: Alphabetize AAM entriesgithub:
17:10:34 <Daniel> https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22
17:11:23 <Daniel> Topic: Alphabetize AAM entries
17:11:23 <Daniel> https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22
17:11:31 <Daniel> Topic: Alphabetize AAM entries
17:11:31 <Daniel> github: https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/22
17:11:42 <Daniel> Zakk: Mirror the html ,aam and core-aam to put them in alphabetical order
17:13:13 <Daniel> Topic: Add explanation for PDF namespace
17:13:13 <Daniel> github: https://github.com/w3c/pdf-aam/issues/21
17:13:47 <Daniel> JamesC: Can someone summarize PDF namespaces for me?
17:14:32 <Daniel> William: similar to xml namespaces. The didn't have namespaces in PDF1 but they do in pdf2
17:14:44 <Daniel> ... It's a different logical tag
17:14:53 <Daniel> ... They have a PDF2 part different from PDF1
17:15:12 <Daniel> ... the default namespace is actually the PDF1 namespace. Confusing, but backwards compatible
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17:15:29 <Paul> present+
17:15:46 <Daniel> ... Similar to PDFUI2 tags. The PDF1 tag did exist, and they can be used
17:16:09 <Daniel> ... You are only allowed to use the PDF2 tags except if there is no correspondence
17:16:55 <Daniel> ... If all you have is PDF1 tags you still can conform
17:17:09 <jcraig> q+
17:17:21 <Daniel> spectranaut_: How do you specify that a document is using PDDF2 tags?
17:17:43 <Daniel> William: Dictionary entry for the structural element that points to the namespace. If you don't sspecify, that's where the PDF1 default is
17:18:08 <Daniel> ... Everytime you use it
17:18:35 <jcraig> ack me
17:18:37 <Daniel> ... The actual namespace object you'd only have in one sspot, and then it'll all be referencing to that spot
17:19:00 <Daniel> Duff: The namespace mechanism is the vehicle for us to introduce MathML in PDF2
17:19:38 <Daniel> William: It's a fundamental element of the enriching of PDF and accessibility of enriched content in PDF
17:20:03 <Daniel> s/William/Duff/
17:20:25 <Daniel> q?
17:20:57 <Daniel> JamesC: it was problematic back in the day when there was the split between HTML and XML
17:21:26 <Daniel> ... The idea that nothing makes it into the spec until there are at least two implementations comes to mind
17:21:40 <Daniel> ... Acrobat is the target for this although there are other clients
17:22:11 <Daniel> ... People may see this as an opportunity for extensibility, and they may assume it works for all the clients
17:22:42 <Daniel> ... This is why W3C introduces this guardrails, so that the things we put in the specs are either stable or emmerging
17:23:57 <Daniel> ... MathML you could extensively insert into XHTML or XML. They are now part of HTML, which is different than opening up another dedicated namespace for this
17:24:16 <Daniel> ... Iaglia or Bocoup have made the implementation for several browsers
17:24:49 <spectranaut_> s/Iaglia or Bocoup/Igalia/
17:24:51 <Daniel> ... Overall, I recommend proceeding with caution on this
17:25:43 <Daniel> William: One of the requirements of PDF-UA and well tagged PDF is that everything that is not well tagged needs to have a standard mapping as to how it should be tagged
17:25:56 <Daniel> ... The behaviors of your custom tag need to match the standard tag
17:26:17 <Daniel> ... Even if you comoe up with new tags that needs to be the case
17:26:23 <Daniel> JamesC: Fallback rules exist
17:26:44 <Daniel> ... I don't see this as an issue for implementing AAM, there are still some chunks of PDF overall implementation that might be problematic
17:27:06 <Daniel> Duff: A universal implementation of PDF features is not likely to be achieved
17:27:33 <Daniel> .. If you a re going to implement a feature you must do that fully and completely
17:27:51 <Daniel> ... The MathML implementation didn't happen in the context of two independent implementations
17:28:18 <Daniel> JamesC: The core specs are effectively following that pattern now
17:28:39 <Daniel> ... Incubation's goal is to prototype these new features so that then what the spec is closed to reality
17:28:50 <Daniel> Duff: Not sure if the goal of the PDF specs is to get closed to reality
17:29:13 <Daniel> JamesC: Surprised for you to say it's an expectation that there won't be interoperability in some parts of the implementation
17:29:24 <Daniel> Duff: What's the true meaning of SHOULD then?
17:29:44 <Daniel> ... Browsers for a very long time haven't implemented PDF beyond baseline features and that's oK
17:29:55 <Daniel> ... a printer is some sort of another PDF implementation
17:30:24 <Daniel> ... Softwware may process PDF according to their specific use case, and there are reasons for this, complexity among others
17:31:01 <Daniel> ... In the case of tagged PDF, if theey want to do it, they should it right
17:31:22 <Daniel> JamesC: See my link above for the SHOULD
17:33:13 <Daniel> https://wpt.fyi/interop-2025
17:34:06 <Daniel> JamesC: By implementations I mean the reading of the PDF
17:34:40 <Daniel> ... Part of the goal of bringing PDF to the web platform is for you to be able to take advantage of this infrastructure to be able to more reliably test, for example, AT implications
17:35:32 <Daniel> JamesC: Core specs are in general very well tested
17:35:54 <Daniel> Zakk: There's alignment in accessibility
17:36:13 <Daniel> Duff: And challenges that we'd have to tackle
17:36:39 <Daniel> ... Our definition of semantic model doens't have a paralelism in HTML
17:36:44 <Daniel> JamesC: It may have it in SVG
17:36:58 <Daniel> ... Most SVG container elements can have titles
17:37:15 <Daniel> ... And I think the HTML equivalent is the document itself
17:37:51 <Daniel> William: Not really equivalent. The SG title is for various pieces, but or PDF is the whole document
17:38:03 <Daniel> ... I am talking in the content title
17:38:23 <Daniel> Duff: In html that'd be the h1, but we reserve this as part of the content
17:39:21 <Daniel> Zakk: MAking sure the interoperability exist, for PDF on the web to be accessible is the main goal here
17:40:31 <Daniel> Topic: Next meeting
17:41:46 <Daniel> Next meeting will be 5 Nov
17:41:56 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:41:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/15-pdf-aam-minutes.html Daniel
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