12:02:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #data-shapes
12:02:40 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/13-data-shapes-irc
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12:02:44 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:02:58 <caribou> Chair: Eliana
12:03:00 <bergos> present+
12:03:02 <caribou> Regrets: Nick
12:03:22 <DavidHabgood> present+
12:03:24 <DavidHabgood> scribe+
12:03:50 <AndyS> zakim, this is Data Shapes WG
12:03:50 <Zakim> got it, AndyS
12:03:53 <caribou> Present: Daniel Beeke, Andy S, Holger, Carine, Edmond
12:03:54 <edmond> edmond has joined #data-shapes
12:04:06 <edmond> present+
12:04:12 <AndyS> AndyS has changed the topic to: Data Shapes WG -- 2025-10-13 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-10-13.md
12:04:16 <AndyS> present+
12:04:34 <caribou> present+ Thomas (Bergi)
12:04:38 <DavidHabgood> Topic: introductions - Daniel Beeke
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12:05:01 <caribou> present+ David Habgood
12:05:18 <AndyS> agenda:  https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-10-13.md
12:05:19 <agendabot> clear agenda
12:05:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion
12:05:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Process
12:05:22 <DavidHabgood> DavidHabgood has changed the topic to: introductions - Daniel Beeke
12:05:33 <caribou> zakim, clear agenda
12:05:33 <Zakim> agenda cleared
12:05:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/13-data-shapes-minutes.html AndyS
12:05:47 <DavidHabgood> Daniel: looking to contribute to ui work
12:05:47 <HolgerK> present+
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12:05:59 <caribou> i/Daniel:/ Topic: Introduction - Daniel Beeke/
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12:07:03 <DavidHabgood> DavidHabgood has changed the topic to: Phase 1 deliverables
12:07:16 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: update from Nick - still waiting for horizontal review
12:07:24 <DavidHabgood> DavidHabgood has changed the topic to: taskforce updates
12:07:45 <caribou> Topic: Task Forces updates
12:07:49 <bergos> q+
12:08:04 <DavidHabgood> HolgerK: small core updates, fixes, more time soon to look at tickets.
12:08:05 <SimonW> present +
12:08:23 <DavidHabgood> ... last version updated is 1st Sept, expecting more frequent auto publish
12:08:56 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: can look at with caribou after meeting
12:09:12 <elianaP> q?
12:09:32 <AndyS> ack bergos
12:10:08 <DavidHabgood> bergos: PR 555 conformance disallow: was approved, further discussion. Not sure how to proceed, I think OK, looking to merge/create new tickets as appropriate
12:11:17 <DavidHabgood> ... two examples have the same IRIs, is this an issue
12:12:23 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: bergos please discuss with Alex and Yousef
12:12:42 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: Alex is currently available due to US gov shutdown
12:12:59 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/555
12:13:16 <DavidHabgood> HolgerK: is same IRIs the issue - clashes will happen often, examples are meant to be self contained
12:13:45 <DavidHabgood> bergos: waiting for response from Yousef - will clarify with him directly
12:13:48 <elianaP> q?
12:15:28 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: any updates on profiling? Nick mentioned PR 604, work started on packaging of SHACL; wider working group input will be necessary, relates to presenting SHACL information in general
12:15:37 <DavidHabgood> ... profiling taskforce will reach out for input shortly
12:16:18 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/604
12:16:31 <DavidHabgood> ... from Nick, call for people to submit other ideas for profiling of SHACL, e.g. profiles based on complexity (216), and any other ideas
12:16:58 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: UI WG updates
12:17:08 <elianaP> q?
12:18:11 <DavidHabgood> edmond: widgets PR open, discussed kinds of inputs to SHACL UI engine, shapes targetting, function that returns set of nodeshapes targeting a focus node. Has been similar discussions elsewhere.
12:18:37 <DavidHabgood> ... handling of language literals, browser vs desktop, how should engine determine language, precedence in shapes
12:19:07 <DavidHabgood> ... label selection, consider different predicates, sh:name etc.
12:19:18 <AndyS> q+
12:19:18 <DavidHabgood> ... using curies, as fallback, local names for IRIs
12:20:56 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: spoke with Livio re. his ideas, he has since written up, it is broader than rules WG
12:21:04 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/discussions/603
12:21:10 <DavidHabgood> ... no meeting this week
12:22:05 <DavidHabgood> ... re. UI, talking about curies, can be anything, no limitations; prefixed names in turtle/trig etc. are more restrictive
12:22:36 <DavidHabgood> ... q re. which parts of the data are targetted by a shape, there must be an interaction between UI and data, any discussion re. protocol? can it work remotely, to e.g. a large database
12:23:43 <DavidHabgood> edmond: targetting is more re. given shapes and data graphs, how does the shape target the focus nodes,
12:24:04 <DavidHabgood> bergos: not covered, suggest more core discussion than UI,
12:25:18 <DavidHabgood> ... discussed matching, this can be targets, how to figure out what matches to data
12:25:29 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: scope sounds more general than UI
12:26:39 <DavidHabgood> bergos: might not have people to cover this at present
12:27:47 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: almost a missing document: "SHACL protocols", how to select a set of shapes on the remote server; here is a shapes graph, how do I send it to an engine close to the database
12:28:21 <DavidHabgood> HolgerK: SPARQL has this sort of protocol. Would we be able to start another document - allowed in process?
12:28:32 <DavidHabgood> caribou: depends on whether it fits scope of charter
12:28:43 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: can be a note
12:28:58 <DavidHabgood> HolgerK: need people to work on it
12:29:28 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: too important for note?
12:29:59 <HolgerK> ack AndyS
12:30:05 <bergos> q+
12:30:35 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: provides a minimal way of going forward; going from ph1 to ph2, good time to consider. Node expressions mean that, where previously could express everything in SPARQL, this is now harder
12:31:10 <DavidHabgood> caribou: could be an accompanying document, so long as it doesn't contain things that should be normative
12:31:23 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: I will raise issue to start discussion
12:31:51 <DavidHabgood> HolgerK: document will have to span requirements from other documents
12:32:31 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: some are simple; rules is more a symbiotic relationship, need to scope out to see how complex
12:32:50 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: if just note, having overlapping scope is not an issue.
12:33:00 <elianaP> q?
12:33:18 <DavidHabgood> caribou: could create issues with dependencies if other documents are not ready yet
12:33:46 <DavidHabgood> ... if just outlining how to use other specs, this is fine for a note, otherwise might need something more
12:34:02 <HolgerK> ack bergos
12:34:56 <DavidHabgood> bergos: what should be covered, if implemented with sparql, is this not just an implementation. SHACL SHACL is the only thing we can only really execute in our environment that we've developed. Not sure how many people would rely on SPARQL, rather than an endpoint
12:35:20 <AndyS> q+
12:35:58 <DavidHabgood> ... when it spans multiple documents, many feedback loops, things to keep in sync; sceptical at this point on capacity to produce this
12:36:34 <DavidHabgood> AndyS: jena's SHACL engine is the primary way of getting a validation report, send shapes to engine and get validation report
12:36:56 <AndyS> ack me
12:37:37 <DavidHabgood> elianaP: Compact Syntax - Jesse and Vladimir not present, will reach out for update
12:39:11 <caribou> RRSAgent, stop logging
12:39:11 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'stop logging', caribou.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
12:39:15 <caribou> RRSAgent, stop