12:05:06 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:05:10 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/09-pmwg-irc 12:05:10 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:05:11 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:05:14 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-10-09: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0010.html 12:05:15 Chair: wendy, susan 12:05:15 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 12:05:15 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0010.html 12:05:16 regrets+ gautierchomel, laurentlm, dalerogers 12:57:44 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 12:59:00 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 12:59:02 SueNeu has joined #pmwg 12:59:10 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:59:24 present+ 12:59:28 kimberg has joined #pmwg 12:59:53 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 12:59:54 present+ 13:00:00 duga has joined #pmwg 13:00:06 present+ 13:00:27 present+ 13:00:27 present+ 13:00:27 present+ 13:00:46 present+ 13:01:07 present+ 13:01:32 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 13:01:37 present+ wendyreid 13:01:41 present+ duga 13:01:56 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 13:02:01 present+ 13:02:10 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 13:02:35 present+ rdeltour 13:04:16 scribe+ 13:04:25 scribe: SueNeu 13:04:28 CharlesL1 has joined #pmwg 13:04:46 present+ 13:04:52 Topic: Topics for F2F - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/discussions/2815 13:05:19 Elizabeth has joined #pmwg 13:05:34 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 13:05:38 q+ 13:05:41 present+ 13:05:42 ack Hadrien 13:05:44 Wendy: We created a discussion in Github for topics for the f2f 13:06:12 Hadrien: There are many publishers/distributers who are doing remediation for accessibility 13:06:27 present+ Elizabeth 13:06:32 …sometimes they generate the image description or infer metadata 13:07:02 …this is important right now, because there is no way to indicate that the descriptions and metadata have been generated 13:07:09 …mostly an accessibility issue 13:07:32 …similar to another topic, the ability to identify synthesized voices 13:07:45 …overall how do we indicate that something was generated in EPUB 13:08:04 q+ 13:08:06 wendyreid: we can include that too 13:08:06 ack ivan 13:08:23 ivan: we had some discussion about the publication manifest 13:08:57 s/Wendy: /wendyreid: 13:09:20 Topic: Font Obfuscation - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2807 13:09:20 q+ 13:09:27 ack ivan 13:09:39 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2814 13:09:55 ivan: I started this discussion and it took an unexpected turn 13:10:24 …I was reviewing another PR and realized that the obfuscation section uses a SHA1 for hashing 13:10:49 …I realized that SHA is one of the algorithm that is considered out of date 13:11:12 …because of security issues and lack of unique hashes 13:11:48 …[1] will retire SHA1 soon which leads to governments and other orgs 13:11:57 …not being able to use it 13:12:14 …I proposed that we update the versiom of SHA 13:12:36 …Brady saw this as an opportunity to retire obfuscation from the spec 13:12:52 …not 100% because we have to be backward compatible 13:13:19 …we can add text saying that people should avoid using obfuscation 13:13:25 …and use WOFF fonts 13:13:41 …in the discussion there was agreement that this is the way to go 13:14:05 …mattgarish has already made a PR 13:14:34 …that includes other obsolete but still usable section 13:14:53 …these are not specifically deprecated 13:15:16 …we ask that people not use these technologies but reading systems with continue to understand them 13:15:45 q+ 13:15:54 …do we want to remove obfuscation in 3.4, and include the new section? 13:16:25 …it makes sense to move older features to a separate section 13:16:57 …it cleans up the spec, we don't have to keep all the font obfuscation specs for ever for example 13:17:00 ack duga 13:17:33 duga: I thinks its better to use WOFF fonts than to rewrite the obfuscation spec 13:17:50 …the reality is that SHA1 isn't broken, there is no maintenance required 13:18:05 …just some won't use it 13:18:19 '…it is not the end of the world if we choose to do nothing 13:18:48 …it is still used. So it is a little weird if one of the major tools, InDesign, still uses obfuscation 13:19:02 …it still makes sense to move it into older features 13:19:10 q+ 13:19:14 s/'.../... 13:19:18 ack SueNeu 13:19:24 scribe+ 13:19:37 SueNeu: Can confirm, Adobe Indesign still produces font obfuscation 13:19:44 q+ 13:19:49 ack ivan 13:20:21 ivan: leonard did chime in on the thread and said he didn't see any reason we couldn't go ahead with WOFF fonts 13:20:42 …perhaps this is an incentive for InDesign to change 13:21:05 wendreid: are we all in agreement that we are deprecating font obfuscation? 13:21:06 q+ 13:21:12 ack duga 13:21:29 duga: is deprecate the right term? 13:21:50 mattgarrish: obsolete but conforming is what is used now 13:21:56 q+ 13:22:18 ack ivan 13:22:33 ivan: the question we also have to answer is what do we expect epub check to do if it sees obfuscation? 13:22:53 mattgarrish: right now, we expect it to say nothing as long as it is used correctly 13:23:23 Proposed: Make font obfuscation an obsolete but conforming EPUB feature in EPUB 3.4. 13:23:29 +1 13:23:30 +1 13:23:30 +1 13:23:31 +1 13:23:31 +1 13:23:32 +1 13:23:33 +1 13:23:34 +1 13:23:36 +1 13:23:37 +1 13:23:38 +1 13:23:53 present+ CharlesL1 13:24:01 s/mattgarrish /mgarrish 13:24:01 RESOLVED: Make font obfuscation an obsolete but conforming EPUB feature in EPUB 3.4. 13:24:06 q+ 13:24:09 ack CharlesL1 13:24:10 wendyreid: resolved 13:24:17 ack CharlesL 13:24:48 CharlesL: do we have anything that lists all the features that are OK but can't really be used anymore from EPUB check? 13:24:58 q+ 13:25:01 ack rdeltour 13:25:10 …can it give a publisher a list of things they shouldn't be doing the future 13:25:39 rdetour: ordinarily we issue a note that they should not use these features 13:25:59 Topic: Alternatives in spine - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2806 13:25:59 s/redetour /rdeltour 13:26:29 wendyreid: there was some discussion on this issue, so we need something in the spine 13:26:44 …besides fallback, that indicates something has an alternative 13:26:52 …we've had a lot of ideas about this 13:27:15 …including mapping between resources using something like SMIL 13:27:36 q+ 13:27:37 …I wonder if this creates other issues especially with overlay files 13:27:39 ack Hadrien 13:28:09 Hadrien: A good number of people have been using fall backs for this, particularly for comics 13:28:27 …I don't know if these is part of the main spec or part of the comics group 13:28:41 …it isn't good if something is widely used but not mentioned in the spec 13:29:00 …I think of newspapers and magazines where this is widely used 13:29:35 …I've seen this implemented as getting a list of alternatives like Libby app in the US/Canada 13:29:48 …it is not a one-to-one mapping 13:30:10 …for some publications you could tap on the article and it would open in another view 13:30:28 …to do something like Libby we wouldn't need SMIL 13:30:54 …to do a one to one mapping we would need something more like SMIL, Rendition mapping or region mapping 13:31:18 …there are alot of organizations that do this with EPUB or PDF. They've invented their own way to do this 13:31:41 …as an extension of the spec to enhance newspapers and magazines as fixed layout epubs 13:32:05 wendyreid: If I understand correctly, you're saying there is a missing thread 13:32:20 q+ 13:32:33 …we could continue to let people use fallbacks but we need some way of indicating why they are being used 13:33:03 …we could extend properties or add something new that says the fallback is being used as an alternative 13:33:27 ack Hadrien 13:33:28 …at large many reading systems may not see the fallback that way and won't provide the necessary UI 13:33:47 Hadrien: fallbacks wouldn't cover the Libby use case 13:34:06 …fallbacks have mostly been used because we don't allow images in the spine 13:34:30 …for what you've described, we do have multiple renditions, though I am not a fan 13:35:04 …I'm not sure it has ever been implemented by anyone other that B&N 13:35:28 …if we want this kind of concept, we could reopen multiple renditions or we could use collection 13:35:48 …I'm worried about introducing something new. We could start with what is in our spec 13:35:58 …because something new may never be implemented 13:36:15 q+ 13:36:19 ack duga 13:36:37 q+ 13:36:44 q+ 13:36:47 duga: I have a question, this came from the fxl group, but are there other use cases? 13:37:05 ack Hadrien 13:37:18 …are we trying to fix this in committee without going to the people who are trying this 13:37:40 Hadrien: yes, people who are members of readium are already doing this 13:37:46 ack wendyreid 13:37:58 …mostly in newspapers, magazines and textbooks 13:38:05 s/readium /EDRLab 13:38:31 wendyreid: there are tool makers who are also trying to solve this 13:38:43 …and there isn't a lot of clarity for fxl accessibiliy 13:38:59 …and reading systems aren't jumping on this either 13:39:16 …no one really knows what an accessible fxl book looks like 13:39:36 …there's no reason why this isn't possible, we've seen examples in closed instances 13:39:48 …people aren't doing this on a large scale 13:40:04 q+ 13:40:05 q+ 13:40:11 ack Hadrien 13:40:17 …the push for this in 3.4 is that publishing moves slowly and this will be needed 13:40:38 Hadrien: we could invite people building these tools or using this content to the task force 13:40:55 …so they could give us a better understanding and we could identify the needs 13:41:11 …do we just need to map between resources or fragments? 13:41:28 …what are the criteria for need these alternates? 13:41:42 …before we push solutions 13:41:49 ack AvneeshSingh 13:41:58 …I can try to get this in place before heading to Japan 13:42:13 AvneeshSingh: it would be great to get the use cases in place first 13:42:41 q+ 13:42:44 …the main use case in DAISY is braille vs text 13:42:49 ack ivan 13:42:56 …and demand is coming back for this 13:43:15 q+ 13:43:23 ack Hadrien 13:43:24 ivan: let's suppose multiple renditions is still in use. Would we be OK with that 13:43:53 q+ 13:43:57 Hadrien: that's a tough question. I don't prefer that. It wouldn't be good enough even if some parts are good enough to sue 13:44:20 …I'm pretty sure major changes would be required if we decided to go to Multiple renditions again 13:44:23 ack ivan 13:44:31 q+ 13:44:47 ivan: what I am afraid of is that we are reinventing the wheel, and a wheel we already have 13:45:00 ack wendyreid 13:45:01 …are we repeating a lot of work others have already done for us 13:45:19 wendyreid: I don't know multiple renditions well, and have never seen one in action 13:45:39 …I understand that multiple versions of the epub are in the same file 13:45:43 q+ 13:46:03 …are they completely separate? Can you switch between them? or view them simultaneously? 13:46:32 …in fxl a11y there is a need to see things at the same time 13:46:54 ack Hadrien 13:46:59 …for instance you can see the full page image but still read the text in a way that can be adjusted for size etc 13:47:25 Hadrien: you can think of multiple renditions as multiple items in the same file 13:47:55 …rendition mapping is used to link resources among different documents 13:48:11 …that's the part I think is not so great right now 13:48:31 …the worst part of multiple renditions is the mapping part 13:49:07 wendyreid: I notice the reading system conformance instruction is that RS must support switching between renditions 13:49:29 …so it wouldn't address the use case I mentioned above 13:49:47 …is your problem with CFI? 13:49:49 q+ 13:49:51 s/so it wouldn't/so it would/ 13:50:01 Hadrien: I don't know why CFI is used so heavily 13:50:07 ack ivan 13:50:12 …I may be able to find my arguments against it 13:50:35 ivan: if you use epub CFI to point to a resource or part of a resource 13:50:48 q+ 13:50:50 …we are working on something like this in the annotation task force 13:51:14 …perhaps we could use what we come up with in the annotation TF instead of CFI? 13:51:22 q- 13:51:40 Hadrien: we may not need the complexity that is needed in annotation anchoring 13:52:08 duga: you only need fancy things like CFI if you don't control the publication 13:52:24 …so we could get rid of that 13:52:44 …are we reworking multiple renditions? 13:53:02 …and CFI? 13:54:05 wendyreid: maybe the new way of targeting text fragments is better than CFI 13:54:28 duga: we could talk about CFI all day 13:54:55 wendyreid: I am convinced that some of our ideas that aren't still used were just ahead of their time. 13:55:22 …we will continue talking about this. EPUB 3.4 is going to be the big fxl revision 13:55:45 …it would be helpful to get any feedback you can get 13:56:08 Hadrien: I will go back to people and ask if they are comfortable talking about it publicly 13:56:29 wendyreid: please add any ideas you have for the f2f 13:56:50 …we are trying to schedule a meeting with APA before TPAC 13:57:58 CharlesL1 has left #pmwg 13:57:58 rrsagent, draft minute 13:57:58 I'm logging. I don't understand 'draft minute', ivan. Try /msg RRSAgent help 13:58:08 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:58:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/09-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 14:04:30 present+ 14:07:49 scribe+ 14:07:50 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 15:02:01 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 15:05:48 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 15:07:04 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 15:15:49 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 15:51:36 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 16:17:34 Zakim has left #pmwg