14:00:55 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:00 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-irc
14:01:00 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:01 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:01:06 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:01:06 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:01:14 <maryjom> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
14:01:24 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:01:40 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
14:01:40 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
14:02:05 <loicmn> present+
14:03:17 <maryjom> regrets: Phil Day, Chris Loiselle, Bruce Bailey
14:03:30 <Daniel> present+
14:04:08 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:04:08 <Daniel> cribe+
14:04:41 <maryjom> regrets: Phil Day, Chris Loiselle
14:04:42 <bbailey> present+
14:04:44 <Daniel> scribe+
14:05:53 <Daniel> Topic: EN clause 10.1.2.3
14:07:14 <Daniel> GreggVan: It goes to JTB. They can either approve or send it back
14:07:37 <Daniel> ... When it comes back there can be minor editorials
14:07:52 <Daniel> ... I don't know if there is going to be a JTB meeting
14:08:05 <Daniel> q+ to say I thought there was going to be one some time in October
14:08:40 <Daniel> GreggVan: If there is a meeting issues would have to be resolved at the end of that meeting
14:08:46 <maryjom> agenda+ Announcements
14:09:05 <Daniel> ... If JTB approves then it goes to vote, otherwise it comes back to us
14:09:17 <maryjom> agenda+ 1.2.3 and 1.2.5 regarding audio descriptions
14:09:43 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:09:43 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:09:45 <GreggVan> present+
14:09:54 <maryjom> ack Daniel
14:09:54 <Zakim> Daniel, you wanted to say I thought there was going to be one some time in October
14:10:27 <Daniel> maryjom: NOTE 3:  This clause corresponds to a WCAG success criterion at level A. Another clause (10.1.2.5) addresses the same user need, but is based on a WCAG success criterion at the higher AA level of accessibility. ICT that satisifies the higher level of accessibility required by clause 10.1.2.5 automatically meets this clause. Because of
14:10:27 <Daniel> this, there is no need to test this clause if the ICT under test has passed a test for clause 10.1.2.5. But if it has failed 10.1.2.5, testing and meeting this clause is still meaningful, as it is better to pass this clause at level A, than to fail both. NOTE:     See Note 2 in clause 9.1.2.3 regarding audio description being in main or
14:10:27 <Daniel> secondary audio track.
14:11:22 <Daniel> ... One was replaced by adding note 4, which was correct, but the second one wasn't removed
14:12:17 <maryjom> Remove the last sentence of Note 3 in 10.1.2.3
14:13:15 <Daniel> maryjom: I had said that notes 1 and 2 became superfluous
14:13:35 <bbailey> q+
14:13:41 <Daniel> maryjom: Also there is differences between "described videos" and "desccribed narration"
14:13:56 <Daniel> bbailey: Both terms are ussed
14:14:08 <Daniel> ... AD became unpopular
14:14:33 <Daniel> s/described narration/descriptive narration/
14:14:36 <bbailey> VD lost popular
14:15:05 <Daniel> Daniel: Took it from our https://www.w3.org/WAI/media/av/description/ -> Media guide
14:15:34 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-audio-descriptions
14:15:49 <bbailey> NOTE 4
14:15:49 <bbailey> Also called "video description" and "descriptive narration."
14:16:47 <Daniel> GreggVan: We should just put all three then
14:17:22 <Daniel> maryjom: We'll have to check clause 9.1.2.3 9.1.2.5 10.1.2.5 and all the 11s
14:18:09 <bbailey> FWIW, 508 defined terms has the same sentence:  https://www.access-board.gov/ict/#E103.4
14:18:17 <Daniel> GreggVan: I have a new filter tool. You can click in the precondition and it filters out the requireemeents
14:18:31 <Daniel> q+ also double check the EN definition of audio description
14:18:48 <bbailey>  Audio description is also called “video description” and “descriptive narration“.
14:18:50 <Daniel> q+ to mention also double check the EN definition of audio description
14:19:02 <Daniel> q-
14:19:03 <Daniel> q+ to mention also double check the EN definition of audio description
14:19:05 <bbailey> q-
14:20:20 <bbailey> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:20:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html bbailey
14:20:51 <Daniel> maryjom: Notes 1 and 2 can be removed from *.1.2.5
14:21:39 <Daniel> s/2.5/2.3/
14:21:50 <bbailey> s/desccribed narration/described narration/
14:22:44 <bbailey> s/are ussed/are used/
14:22:54 <Daniel> maryjom: We should renumber the notes then, remove the extraneous "See note 2", and then add "descriptive narration" to that
14:23:18 <bbailey> s/VD lost popular/VD lost popularity/
14:24:45 <Daniel> GreggVan: In 11, removee notes 1 and 2, fix note 4. And then 11.1.2.5 remove 1 and 2, and fix note 3, and then remove the notes appropriately
14:25:03 <Daniel> maryjom: 11.1.2.5 there's only one note left
14:25:13 <Daniel> zakim, agenda?
14:25:13 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:25:25 <Daniel> maryjom: It's all editorials
14:25:29 <Daniel> GreggVan: Agree
14:26:58 <Daniel> maryjom: I will update my pull request
14:28:50 <Daniel> Topic: "controls" to "elements"
14:29:04 <Daniel> maryjom: I just saw that change, one in 1.4.13
14:29:12 <Daniel> ... Making sure this is consistent throughout
14:30:58 <Daniel> GreggVan: We have two places where we use content and controls, that's oK to use controls. In other places we should use user interface controls.
14:31:19 <Daniel> GreggVan: The reason it was change to "elements" is because of the navigation factor
14:31:47 <Daniel> GreggVan: There are two different words for two different concepts
14:32:07 <bbailey> elsewhere, we also have had conversation about "interactive elements" and "non-interactive elements"
14:32:56 <Daniel> maryjom:  Two places are 2.4.4 and 1.4.13
14:33:04 <Daniel> ... We'll hae to check these in here
14:34:19 <Daniel> s/Two/The two/
14:34:40 <Daniel> s/2.4/2.2/
14:35:04 <Daniel> s/2.2/2.4/
14:36:27 <Daniel> Topic: Are recommended x-height sizes needed in WCAG2ICT?
14:36:49 <Daniel> maryjom: This is for 1.4.4 Resize Text
14:37:04 <Daniel> ... This is not an interpretation, this is additional information, may not be needed in WCAG2ICT
14:37:19 <Daniel> ... Should we really add it?
14:37:24 <Daniel> GreggVan: I'd leave it off
14:37:33 <Daniel> maryjom: I'll delete this pull request
14:38:23 <Daniel> Draft Resolution: WCAG2ICT not to add recommended x-height sizes
14:39:05 <Daniel> bbailey: I also agree to leave it off
14:39:33 <Daniel> GreggVan: The only group now that would be looking at this would be 508, but they'll be looking at the EN
14:40:27 <Daniel> bbailey: The bit about x-height is not well circulated. I don't think it's common knowledge.
14:41:05 <bbailey> i concur with not adding it to WCAG2ICT
14:41:11 <Daniel> GreggVan: We should say that this is because it favors readability
14:41:55 <Daniel> RESOLUTION: WCAG2ICT not to add recommended x-height sizes
14:42:07 <Daniel> Topic: 1.3.4 Orientation
14:42:47 <Daniel> maryjom: I just want to make sure that the note and the precondition will be correctly reflected in our PR
14:43:35 <maryjom> 10.1.3.4 A non-web document that is only used on hardware that supports a single display orientation, or is only displayed on hardware that is physically fixed in one orientation (e.g. a digital building directory) is excluded by the precondition and therefore does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:44:00 <maryjom> above is the example.
14:44:30 <GreggVan> Where ICT is, or includes, a non-web document, and the non-web document is displayed on hardware that is designed to be reoriented in typical use,
14:44:30 <GreggVan> 	the non-web document shall satisfy the WCAG 2.2 Success Criterion 1.3.4 Orientation except when the non-web document will only ever be viewed on a single locked-orientation display.
14:44:30 <GreggVan> 	EXAMPLE:  A non-web document that is only used on hardware that supports a single display orientation, or is only displayed on hardware that is physically fixed in one orientation (e.g. a digital building directory) is excluded by the precondition and therefore does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:44:51 <bbailey> Preview:  https://deploy-preview-780--wcag2ict.netlify.app/#orientation
14:46:23 <bbailey> Preview diff:  https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fwcag2ict%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fdeploy-preview-780--wcag2ict.netlify.app%2F#orientation
14:47:39 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:47:43 <Daniel> maryjom: In this case it does have the "except when the non-web document will only ever be viewed on a single locked-orientation display".
14:47:56 <Daniel> GreggVan: You are right that this is redundant
14:49:00 <Daniel> maryjom: I think that will handle that one
14:49:34 <Daniel> maryjom: Let's look at 11.1.3.4
14:50:22 <Daniel> maryjom: For this I do need to update the PR for the examples
14:50:38 <GreggVan> Where ICT is, or includes, non-web software that provides a user interface, and the non-web software is displayed on hardware that is designed to be reoriented in typical use,
14:50:38 <GreggVan> 	the non-web software shall satisfy the WCAG 2.2 Success Criterion 1.3.4 Orientation.
14:50:38 <GreggVan> 		NOTE:  Non-web software that is only used on hardware that supports a single display orientation, or where it is an application that is run only on hardware that is physically fixed in one orientation (e.g. a digital building directory) is excluded by the precondition and therefore does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:50:38 <GreggVan> 		EXAMPLES:   of software that is excluded by the precondition:
14:50:40 <GreggVan> 		* The software on a typical handheld calculator (one that typically would only be used in one orientation)
14:50:40 <GreggVan> 		* Software that runs on wristwatches (where the software typically only runs in one orientation)(sleep mode being non-typical)
14:50:40 <GreggVan> 		* Building directory software written to ONLY be used on tablet devices bolted to the wall, all in the same orientation
14:52:37 <Daniel> q+
14:53:19 <Daniel> [[WIP on the PR]]
14:53:50 <Daniel> bbailey: Isn't "run on hardware " too colloquial?
14:53:57 <Daniel> maryjom: I'll change it
14:55:03 <Daniel> bbailey: Running is how a programmer would say it, but maybe not common use
14:56:21 <Daniel> maryjom: The sentence introducing the examples
14:56:26 <Daniel> ... is incomplete
14:57:27 <Daniel> maryjom: I will update all of this
14:57:55 <Daniel> Daniel: there is a missing space between closing and opening parenthesis, just before "sleep mode"
14:58:21 <Daniel> bbailey: And there's also "run" which is used twice in the same sentence
14:58:38 <Daniel> bbailey: I wouldn't even change that, but I'll change "run" to "used"
14:59:26 <Daniel> s/bbailey/gregV/
15:00:01 <Daniel> s/gregV/GreggVan/
15:00:16 <Daniel> GreggVan: I like "designed"
15:00:44 <Daniel> maryjom: "used on ristwatches" is better
15:01:05 <Daniel> GreggVan: "content is displayed" works better
15:01:34 <Daniel> maryjom: I am going to put these in the PR. Should you send it to Mike?
15:02:16 <Daniel> GreggVan: We'd appreciate it if you could send these to him
15:02:33 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:02:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:02:52 <Daniel> maryjom: OK, I'll send these two Mike
15:04:01 <Daniel> s/two/to/
15:04:11 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:05:56 <Daniel> s/AD became unpopular//
15:06:00 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:06:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:07:37 <Daniel> Topic: Page titled
15:08:07 <Daniel> GreggVan: I think this doesn't apply to documents or software
15:08:36 <Daniel> ... That wasn't the intent of the SC. There are not browser windows once you get outside of the browser
15:10:49 <Daniel> maryjom: I think we have "it's problematic to apply"
15:11:17 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/#page-titled
15:13:12 <Daniel> GreggVan: Old note seems to imply that as long as it has the name, it passes
15:13:33 <Daniel> maryjom: In CMSs they may have no control what they are named
15:14:21 <Daniel> maryjom: In the EN is not voided for documents
15:14:27 <bbailey> a digital letter has metadata -- so title can be there
15:14:34 <Daniel> ... It is for non-web softwware
15:14:54 <Daniel> ... 10.2.4.2
15:15:11 <bbailey> Non-web document titled
15:17:07 <bbailey> q+
15:18:16 <maryjom> ack Daniel
15:18:16 <Zakim> Daniel, you wanted to mention also double check the EN definition of audio description and to
15:18:36 <bbailey> q-
15:20:43 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:20:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:27:14 <Daniel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:27:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html Daniel
15:28:17 <loicmn> loicmn has left #wcag2ict
15:44:40 <bbailey> Documentation shall list and explain how to use the accessibility and compatibility features required by Chapters 4 and 5. Documentation shall include accessibility features that are built-in and accessibility features that provide compatibility with assistive technology.
15:44:58 <bbailey> https://www.access-board.gov/ict/#602.2
15:52:06 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20aaa
15:53:34 <maryjom> https://ibm.box.com/v/WCAG2ICT-Gregg-LevelAAA-SC
15:58:35 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
15:58:47 <maryjom> present+
15:59:07 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:59:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
17:58:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict