12:03:21 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg
12:03:25 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-pmwg-irc
12:03:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:03:26 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:03:38 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-10-02: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0002.html
12:03:39 <ivan> Chair: wendy, susan
12:03:39 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:03:39 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Oct/0002.html
12:39:43 <Dale> Dale has joined #pmwg
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12:58:03 <ivan> present+
12:58:10 <ivan> present+ Dale
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12:59:44 <ivan> present+ kimberg
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12:59:52 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
12:59:55 <ivan> present_ sueneu
13:00:01 <toshiakikoike> present+
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13:00:10 <duga> present+
13:00:13 <ivan> s/present_/present+/
13:00:16 <shiestyle> present+
13:00:27 <sueneu> present+
13:01:13 <ivan> present+ george
13:01:58 <ivan> present+ hadrien
13:02:09 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg
13:02:14 <ivan> present+ gautierchomel
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13:02:37 <Hadrien> present+
13:02:39 <mgarrish> present+
13:02:40 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:02:54 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
13:02:57 <gautierchomel> present+
13:03:05 <George> present+
13:03:14 <duga> scribe+
13:03:21 <sueneu> present+
13:03:32 <sueneu> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlfG9mX2mWSGf_Q1LB67OJ_d2UD3IG_X1rfAOTjmb3g/edit?usp=sharing
13:03:46 <duga> sueneu: Here is the list of attendees we have so far
13:04:37 <duga> ... Shall we start with f2f topics?
13:05:27 <sueneu> topic: topics for F2F
13:05:41 <ivan> q+
13:05:51 <mgarrish> q+
13:06:09 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:06:22 <duga> ivan: I have a started list for discussion
13:07:07 <duga> ... We need to decide on HTML and messaging
13:07:28 <duga> ... Image in spine would be good for f2f
13:07:58 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pmwg
13:08:05 <CharlesL> present+
13:08:20 <duga> ... Annotations tech will start to come up, I would feel better if the group could bless any direction
13:08:38 <Hadrien> q+
13:08:44 <duga> ... maybe with a short over of the annotations work
13:09:04 <mgarrish> q-
13:09:20 <duga> ... Not sure about epub in ISO, is it time to discuss that again?
13:09:37 <sueneu> ack mgarrish
13:10:01 <duga> mgarrish: I was just on for the ISO topic, but ivan covered it
13:10:27 <duga> ... it would be nice to stop referencing 3.0.1
13:10:46 <sueneu> ack Hadrien
13:11:14 <ivan> +1 to Hadrien
13:11:17 <duga> Hadrien: I have opened a bunch of issues, mostly on rendition properties, that I think should be deprecated
13:11:25 <duga> ... I would like that on the agenda
13:11:46 <sueneu> +1 to Hadrien
13:11:50 <duga> ... a lot of that is related to images in spine and continuously scrolled
13:11:52 <duga> q+
13:12:00 <sueneu> ack duga
13:12:16 <sueneu> scribe+
13:12:38 <sueneu> duga: we should probably have time for all the task forces and the topics they want to discuss
13:12:41 <ivan> q+
13:12:49 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:12:58 <duga> ivan: One more thing, in a different category
13:13:22 <duga> ... based on a chat about web publication manifest
13:13:35 <duga> ... is this work we want to take up? How/when/who/if
13:13:40 <Hadrien> q+
13:13:47 <sueneu> q+
13:13:50 <duga> ... but it isn't an epub topic, so it should be separated from the rest
13:13:53 <sueneu> ack sueneu
13:14:16 <duga> sueneu: If the WPM isn't an epub topic, where does it go? Business group?
13:14:25 <duga> ivan: No, we are chartered to cover it
13:14:25 <sueneu> ack Hadrien
13:14:49 <ivan> q+
13:14:52 <duga> Hadrien: Laurent and I have discussed WPM as a breakout session
13:14:59 <duga> ... so that is an option
13:15:20 <duga> ... we also wanted to have a breakout on accessible comics
13:15:32 <duga> ... and then maybe something on AI, but that is a bit vague
13:15:32 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:16:12 <duga> ivan: The problem with a break out is remote participation, mgarrish and I won't be there, and are not available at all time
13:16:19 <duga> s/time/times/
13:16:45 <duga> sueneu: We will make a list and review next week
13:16:55 <duga> ... Move on to bikeshed
13:17:14 <sueneu> topic: name for scrolled comics rendition
13:17:18 <duga> ... what to really call the new property
13:17:31 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2791
13:17:59 <duga> sueneu: I made a table for a quick vote
13:18:01 <duga> q+
13:18:18 <duga> ... everyone votes near 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice
13:18:34 <sueneu> ack duga
13:19:15 <duga> sueneu: is this feasible?
13:19:21 <duga> ... there are a lot
13:19:37 <duga> ivan: Some have been thinned out
13:20:42 <duga> Hadrien: roll, scroll, some others are popular
13:20:50 <duga> duga: It's too many
13:20:58 <duga> q+
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13:21:26 <gpellegrino> present+
13:21:35 <gpellegrino> present+
13:22:36 <Dale> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FgC98D6O7T_lW_eb541jOKoAxP5XsKLoqtB7eQV6Lfo/edit?tab=t.0
13:22:45 <duga> Hadrien: Which list?
13:22:52 <duga> duga: The one in google docs
13:23:59 <duga> ivan: People are already voting in the doc
13:25:24 <Dale> q+
13:25:26 <duga> sueneu: I don't like tiles
13:25:32 <duga> s/tiles/tiled/
13:25:50 <duga> ... A single tile is not complete
13:26:21 <Hadrien> q+
13:26:41 <duga> duga: I do not like scroll or scrolled, since this is where we started
13:27:26 <sueneu> @ack hadrien
13:27:37 <duga> Hadrien: I am opposed to vertical in the name, since we may want direction eventually
13:27:51 <sueneu> ack duga
13:28:01 <Hadrien> ack Hadrien
13:28:03 <duga> ivan: Roll is emerging as the winner
13:28:07 <sueneu> ack Dale
13:28:17 <duga> Dale: there seems to be energy against scroll
13:28:23 <ivan> q+
13:28:31 <duga> ... the DOM uses scroll for movement in the document
13:28:45 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:28:53 <duga> ... so I think we should stay with it
13:29:05 <duga> ivan: Scroll completely misled me
13:29:29 <duga> ... since we already use it, I am opposed
13:29:48 <ivan> present+ wendy
13:29:57 <Hadrien> > A scroll is a long, narrow piece of paper or parchment that is written or printed on and then rolled up for storage. A roll is a similar type of document that is made by rolling up several sheets of paper or parchment together.
13:30:00 <duga> sueneu: should we vote between tile and roll?
13:30:03 <duga> ivan: sure
13:30:06 <kimberg> tiled actually has two -1s
13:30:28 <duga> q+
13:30:31 <Hadrien> > The main difference between a scroll and a roll is the number of sheets that are used. A scroll is typically a single sheet of paper or parchment that has been written or printed on and then rolled up, while a roll is made up of multiple sheets that are attached together and then rolled up.
13:30:36 <sueneu> ack duga
13:30:57 <sueneu> can we get plus ones/minus ones for roll?
13:31:03 <wendyreid> present+
13:31:11 <gautierchomel> +1
13:31:12 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #pmwg
13:31:14 <ivan> +1 for "roll"
13:31:14 <duga> q+
13:31:16 <Hadrien> +1
13:31:28 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:31:38 <sueneu> ack duga
13:31:42 <shiestyle> Proposed: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
13:31:56 <ivan> +1
13:31:58 <wendyreid> +1
13:31:58 <duga> +1
13:31:58 <sueneu> +1
13:31:59 <Hadrien> +1
13:32:00 <CharlesL> +1
13:32:01 <gpellegrino> +1
13:32:05 <shiestyle> +1
13:32:07 <Dale> +1
13:32:08 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:32:16 <George> +1
13:32:17 <ivan> bikeshed?
13:32:34 <wendyreid> zakim, what color is your bikeshed?
13:32:34 <Zakim> I think Dark candy apple red
13:32:35 <gpellegrino> is it a dish?
13:32:52 <ivan> resolved: "roll" for rendition:layout for scrolled comics
13:32:58 <ivan> q+
13:33:06 <sueneu> @ ivan
13:33:13 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:33:16 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:33:26 <duga> ivan: We have the term, does that mean the PR can be merged?
13:33:41 <duga> Hadrien: No, a large portion of the discussion is images in spine
13:33:59 <duga> ivan: Leaving the PR open for months will be bad
13:34:25 <duga> ... merging an incomplete PR is better than leaving it open with the document changing under it
13:34:33 <sueneu> ack mgarrish
13:35:08 <duga> mgarrish: In this case, some of the changes are useful even if we back it out
13:35:29 <duga> ... but others would need to be pulled
13:35:38 <duga> Hadrien: I can make the change, it is easy
13:35:56 <duga> sueneu: and mgarrish will take a look to see if it should be merged?
13:36:23 <duga> mgarrish: Yeah, I have to look at it given my major PRs, it will need to be corrected to merge properly
13:36:44 <sueneu> topic: Play order for FXL
13:36:44 <sueneu> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2664#issuecomment-3334721336
13:37:20 <duga> sueneu: There was misunderstanding on it last time
13:37:28 <duga> ... George, can you explain?
13:37:40 <sueneu> ack George
13:37:48 <duga> George: We had a similar issue with DAISY 3 for determining order
13:38:00 <duga> ... so there we added a sequence, so each item had a play order
13:38:01 <wendyreid> q+
13:38:25 <sueneu> ack wendyreid
13:38:37 <duga> ... so it is designed to provide a linear order for fixed layout
13:39:12 <sueneu> q+
13:39:18 <duga> wendyreid: We didn't understand where it would appear? Is it document level (each doc is ordered), or is it inside the document, so each item in document is ordered
13:39:20 <gpellegrino> q+
13:39:32 <sueneu> gpellegrino
13:39:39 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:39:41 <sueneu> ack gpellegrino
13:39:43 <duga> George: I didn't get into the details
13:40:04 <duga> gpellegrino: I am not sure if this will work with current assistive technologies
13:40:06 <gautierchomel> q+
13:40:12 <sueneu> q-
13:40:19 <duga> ... since it is already using the DOM order, and we won't be able to change that
13:40:26 <sueneu> ack gautierchomel
13:40:38 <duga> ... so it is interesting, but we need to make sure it can work natively on the web
13:41:17 <duga> gautierchomel: We have a reading order inside a page, we are good. But if my reading order goes across pages then we have a problem
13:41:17 <mgarrish> q+
13:41:21 <Hadrien> q+
13:41:29 <duga> ... to do it today requires a bunch of tricks
13:41:50 <duga> ... This never happens on a web page - reading over is never across resources
13:42:15 <sueneu> ack mgarrish
13:42:30 <duga> ... so I think we should set this aside and consider a solution that handles cross resource
13:42:51 <duga> mgarrish: We already have flowto, so not sure we need something for AT
13:43:10 <duga> ... but there is no "flowacross" where the reading order skips across pages
13:43:38 <sueneu> ack Hadrien
13:43:46 <duga> ... it will be very hard to get AT to skip around resources
13:44:03 <duga> Hadrien: I think the biggest problem is the content can be spread over multiple resources
13:44:32 <duga> ... we have pages across spread, but it could be half a sentence in one spread, the other half in another
13:44:44 <duga> ... I don't see how to solve this with html or aria
13:45:11 <duga> ... We would need something like smil, or another custom navigation structure on top
13:45:25 <gautierchomel> q+
13:45:28 <duga> sueneu: So should we close this and open a new one?
13:45:46 <sueneu> ack gautierchomel
13:46:31 <duga> gautierchomel: We already have several issues already about audio sync
13:46:48 <duga> ... we have the same problem for TTS, FXL with AT, etc
13:47:08 <duga> ... this becomes worse when we talk about [???]
13:48:03 <duga> ... we could move this to a discussion, and not have an issue open to keep the issues tracker size down
13:48:20 <duga> ... I think we have an FXL meta issue on this, maybe point to that?
13:48:32 <duga> sueneu: So should we close the issue and move it to a discussion?
13:48:40 <duga> ivan: Discussion where?
13:48:54 <duga> gautierchomel: Maybe the discussion feature in github?
13:49:22 <gautierchomel> s/[???]/[visual narratives]
13:49:29 <duga> ... I just prefer that or something like it to have a discussion open in an issue tracker that is never closed
13:49:45 <wendyreid> q+
13:49:54 <sueneu> ack wendyreid
13:50:09 <duga> wendyreid: We discussed discussions last week, maybe we can use this as a test case
13:50:33 <duga> ... we have a lot of these, it would be good to try the feature out
13:50:37 <ivan> q+
13:50:46 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:51:19 <sueneu> ack wendyreid
13:51:26 <duga> ivan: to move ahead - A. close it. B. wendyreid or someone looks into the feature and set it up C. we use it for this case
13:51:37 <duga> wendyreid: We have the feature, nothing to turn on
13:51:44 <duga> ivan: gautierchomel says it isn't on
13:52:03 <duga> wendyreid: Oh, maybe I can see it because I am a maintainer
13:52:21 <duga> ... I will make sure to turn it on
13:52:44 <duga> ivan: So after the minutes are up and the discussions are ready, we will close it with a pointer to the discussion
13:52:58 <duga> topic: AVIF files in the package
13:53:10 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2794
13:53:11 <sueneu> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2794
13:53:23 <sueneu> ack Hadrien
13:53:32 <duga> Hadrien: A few years ago I added a similar issue about webp
13:53:44 <ivan> q+
13:54:06 <duga> ... it is the fastest growing format
13:54:16 <duga> ... widely used today
13:54:30 <duga> ... images is a funny case, since we have a whitelist for them
13:54:39 <duga> ... unlike other media types
13:54:43 <sueneu> ack ivan
13:54:49 <duga> ... so it is a strong choice to add
13:54:55 <shiestyle> q+
13:55:26 <duga> ivan: We have at least two implementations at this point
13:55:37 <kimberg> not sure offhand
13:55:41 <sueneu> ack shiestyle
13:55:58 <duga> ... so this is probably just an editing issue
13:56:10 <duga> shiestyle: In Japan many RSes don't support even webp
13:56:32 <duga> ... so I think it is good to add avif
13:57:19 <duga> ivan: Let's do a formal proposal
13:57:24 <sueneu> propose: Add AVIF to the EPUB package
13:57:35 <sueneu> +1
13:57:36 <duga> ... and I am happy to do the PR
13:57:40 <shiestyle> +1
13:57:41 <ivan> +1
13:57:43 <Hadrien> +1
13:57:44 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:57:46 <duga> +1
13:57:46 <gautierchomel> +1
13:57:46 <Dale> +1
13:57:47 <wendyreid> +1
13:57:47 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:57:51 <shiestyle> s/propose: /Proposed:/
13:57:55 <CharlesL> +1
13:58:29 <ivan> resolved: Add AVIF to the EPUB package
13:59:05 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pmwg
13:59:17 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:07:41 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:07:41 <RRSAgent> I see no action items