16:57:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:04 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-aria-irc
16:58:04 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:05 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:13 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:13 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20251002T130000/
16:58:13 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-09-25+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/42uhursr
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:58:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC planning https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate
16:58:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> [aria-valuenow]: default to native value when one exists https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2631
16:58:19 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ARIA IDL updates: enumerated attribute conversions, new "enumerated" wai-aria type, IDL examples https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2484
16:58:22 <agendabot> agenda+ -> CSS: handing the a11y of anchor positioning https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/545
16:58:24 <front-endian-jane> front-endian-jane has joined #aria
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17:00:19 <jamesn> agenda?
17:01:26 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:01:39 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
17:01:56 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:02:05 <Rahim> present+
17:02:18 <Jacques> present+
17:02:27 <Daniel> present+
17:02:46 <spectranaut_> scribe+
17:02:48 <front-endian-jane> front-endian-jane has joined #aria
17:02:55 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:02:55 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-09-25+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:59 <jcraig> present+
17:03:00 <Brett> Brett has joined #aria
17:03:09 <front-endian-jane> present+
17:03:37 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2643
17:03:48 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:03:50 <pkra> present+
17:03:52 <spectranaut_> Sarah: this topic is on the agenda
17:03:54 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:03:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, spectranaut_
17:03:58 <spectranaut_> zakim, close item
17:03:58 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', spectranaut_
17:04:00 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:04:00 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/42uhursr -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:00 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:04:04 <katez> present+
17:04:08 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:04:13 <Stefan> present+
17:04:20 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2642
17:04:21 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:04:35 <spectranaut_> Peter: that is from the editor's meeting
17:04:41 <siri> present+
17:04:43 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2639
17:05:02 <spectranaut_> jamesn: from the feedback from ARIA IDL work
17:05:07 <spectranaut_> Rahim: pretty sure the answer is no
17:05:13 <sarah> present+
17:05:26 <spectranaut_> Rahim: but maybe disabled/hidden/expanded should work like html boolean attributes like "disabled"
17:05:39 <spectranaut_> Rahim: but maybe we should talk about it
17:05:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I'll agenda it
17:06:07 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2638
17:06:35 <spectranaut_> front-endian-jane: I can put a PR with what I think should be the change and we can talk about it then
17:06:57 <spectranaut_> s/maybe disabled/maybe aria-disabled/
17:07:26 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:07:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:11 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
17:08:22 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:09:17 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/54126 - waiting for feedback
17:09:41 <spectranaut_> jcraig: More opininions from other browser engineers on https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/53733?
17:10:11 <spectranaut_> s/opininions/opinions/
17:12:24 <spectranaut_> jcraig: https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/53676 these work from safari and chrome, but keith can you look at it for gecko
17:13:15 <spectranaut_> keithamus: There needs to be some changes, we should have a webdriver way to say "wait for this promise to resolve" before considering the crash test a crash
17:13:21 <Rahim> q+
17:13:28 <spectranaut_> jcraig: sounds non blocking, we should look into that
17:13:45 <spectranaut_> jcraig: there are some old ones from giacomo and scott, please review or re-review
17:13:48 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:14:19 <spectranaut_> rahim: I wanted to ask if we should document the behavior of tests that don't apply for a particular browser.... because someone would see that and see firefox doesn't crash, even though the test didn't really run
17:14:27 <spectranaut_> jcraig: add a readme to the directory?
17:14:40 <spectranaut_> keithamus: if we had an issue describing this we could point to the issue
17:14:51 <spectranaut_> keithamus: I'll file an issue
17:15:32 <jamesn> agenda?
17:15:37 <spectranaut_> jcraig: put the issue in the accessibility interop repo
17:15:43 <spectranaut_> agenda, next item
17:15:47 <spectranaut_> agendabot, next item
17:15:47 <agendabot> spectranaut_, sorry, I don't understand "next item". Try "agendabot, help".
17:15:53 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:15:53 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC planning https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:36 <spectranaut_> jamesn: will someone from apple lead this?
17:16:43 <spectranaut_> jcraig: its tenative, but yes if so
17:17:02 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I think we need someone from the openusd, but not sure they will make it
17:17:46 <spectranaut_> jcraig: openusd is a file format where we are hoping to get accessibility properties in there, the first set to ship is label description and priority
17:17:54 <spectranaut_> jcraig: there are parallels to SCG
17:18:23 <spectranaut_> jcraig: in that SVG can have an alt associated with it, remotely linked, embedded accessibility information in the file.
17:18:31 <spectranaut_> s/SCG/SVG/
17:18:54 <spectranaut_> s/is a file/is a model file/
17:19:12 <spectranaut_> jamesn: even if it is a brief overview of what is going on, it would be useful to have
17:19:22 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if nothing else I can give the overview
17:19:42 <spectranaut_> jamesn: maybe appropriate for a slightly wider APA group discussion?
17:19:50 <spectranaut_> jamesn: maybe broader than ARIA?
17:20:22 <spectranaut_> jamesn: unless we just want to get in a nitty gritty technical detail, this would be the group, but if you wanted broad strokes/brainstorming it could be helpful
17:20:57 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe not joint -- but you and that APA chairs could not schedule competing times, so they could attend if they were interested?
17:21:34 <spectranaut_> The above discussion was about: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2644
17:21:58 <Daniel> q+
17:22:10 <spectranaut_> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2644
17:22:35 <spectranaut_> jcraig: do we want one session on accessibility interop? maybe we need individual sessions on separate topics under this
17:22:56 <spectranaut_> jcraig: like the accessibility property bag that jamie teh and rahim and working on, and the AAM tests val is working on
17:23:02 <Daniel> q?
17:23:20 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I was hoping to have time to discuss which of this bullet list we wanted to separate out into separate meetings
17:23:31 <spectranaut_> matt_king: there is a lot to cover just on the AT topic
17:24:03 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe we do keep this one just about AT interop as you filed it
17:24:17 <spectranaut_> jcraig: lola said there is a breakout group on tuesday
17:25:10 <spectranaut_> matt_king: I filled two, one for daniel, about a high level discussion of pulling all the pieces together. It might be good to have some of these other topics covered for the group before the higher level discussion
17:25:17 <jamesn> ack Daniel
17:25:20 <spectranaut_> Daniel: it doesn't have to be one or the other, we could have both
17:25:47 <pkra> spectranaut_ you're not muted and I think your typing is coming through.
17:25:48 <spectranaut_> Daniel: I haven't had time to put my thoughts in the issue, I thought of this as a joint meeting, to know what everyone is doing in terms of accessibility testing
17:26:19 <pkra> spectranaut_ thank you!
17:26:42 <jamesn> s/spectranaut_ you're not muted and I think your typing is coming through.//
17:26:52 <jamesn> s/spectranaut_ thank you!//
17:27:12 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'll file another issue as a discussion of property bag of web driver
17:27:59 <spectranaut_> matt_king: I think I want a full hour on AT testing
17:28:57 <spectranaut_> jamesn: what is your goal for the output of this?
17:29:20 <spectranaut_> matt_king: We are moving away from incubation and towards formalizing the ARIA-AT work. But "which work"
17:30:11 <spectranaut_> jcraig: lets leave this one, call it accessibility interop -- cover all the pieces then deep dive into ARIA-AT.
17:30:27 <spectranaut_> jcraig: with pointers to all the others
17:31:37 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_: I'll make an update on Acacia/AAM tests
17:32:50 <spectranaut_> matt_king: We should organize the sessions in a way that helps people go from one rendering stack to the other end of the rendering stack, and all the work we are doing to harmonize all this work together. The bigger problem is that we aren't harmonized and we don't have a comprehensive strategy
17:32:57 <jamesn> q+
17:33:26 <jamesn> ack me
17:33:34 <spectranaut_> jamesn: Matt, can you put your thoughts into one of these items
17:33:46 <spectranaut_> zakim, next item
17:33:46 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> [aria-valuenow]: default to native value when one exists https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2631 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:33 <spectranaut_> sarah: quick over view, role=input on a input type text
17:35:16 <spectranaut_> sarah: the input has a native value, but you are required to put aria-valuenow, it seems unnecessary, it can cause problems, this can conflict in terms of timing -- the value is updated, but aria-valuenow is update a cycle later
17:35:50 <jcraig> q+
17:35:56 <spectranaut_> sarah: I wanted to make it clear the default value of aria-valuenow  should be the native value where it exists
17:36:37 <jamesn> q+
17:36:37 <spectranaut_> sarah: better fall back for aria-valuenow than zero when native value exists
17:36:51 <jamesn> q-
17:37:27 <spectranaut_> jcraig: great, I agree conceptually with the change. I'll review. A handful of things...
17:37:40 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:37:43 <spectranaut_> sarah: it is draft because it's not complete yet, more sections need to be added, but you can review what is there
17:37:48 <Matt_King> q?
17:37:53 <spectranaut_> jcraig: we should reference the host language generally and use html as the example
17:37:58 <Matt_King> q+
17:38:07 <smockle> present+
17:38:16 <Matt_King> present+
17:38:37 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:38:41 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:38:47 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: I haven't looked at the PR, but I'm so happy you are doing this!
17:38:58 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: does this involve changes to aria-valuenow description
17:39:14 <spectranaut_> sarah: no, the value calculation for roles that use it would change
17:39:38 <Jacques> q+
17:39:41 <spectranaut_> jcraig: it is in the description prose of spinbutton..... but should it be moved to the aria-valuenow discussion?
17:40:28 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: there are a bunch of other circumstances, where not requiring aria-valuenow is a problem. like sliders, where aria-valuetext is specified, aria-valuenow should be added
17:40:39 <sarah> q+
17:40:42 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: and it makes it much more verbose when both aria-valuetext and aria-valuenoe are included
17:41:18 <spectranaut_> sarah: yeah, there is an issue open for value calculation, value calculation wouldn't solve this particular issue
17:41:29 <jamesn> q+
17:41:29 <spectranaut_> sarah: matt I fully agree, but I don't want to expand the scope of this
17:42:19 <jamesn> ack sarah
17:42:22 <spectranaut_> sarah: I'm actually make this pretty scoped, the number of elements that have native values that you can do this for is quite small, see aria-html
17:42:23 <jamesn> ack Jacques
17:42:26 <jamesn> q-
17:42:42 <spectranaut_> Jacques: my question is: for spinbutton, that makes sense... but what else?
17:42:54 <spectranaut_> sarah: the things that can  have aria-value now are limited, so that is the gaurdrails
17:43:14 <spectranaut_> sarah: if you put a progressbar on an input, I don't see a problem with the value gettinga default
17:43:25 <spectranaut_> s/if you/but if you/
17:43:32 <spectranaut_> sarah: (reads the open question)
17:43:54 <jamesn> q+
17:44:00 <spectranaut_> sarah: One open question: if the native value is set to something that cannot be evaluated as a number such as "5 cm", should we say that authors MUST define aria-valuenow, or should we say that the value should be treated as aria-valuetext?
17:44:27 <Jacques> q+
17:44:54 <jamesn> ack jamesn
17:45:12 <spectranaut_> jamesn: because of the ability for this to happen, what would be the harm, if we always did aria-valuetext instead of aria-valuenow
17:45:15 <sarah> q+
17:45:28 <jamesn> ack sarah
17:45:41 <spectranaut_> sarah: I'm curious to hear what jcraig has to say, voiceover doesn't read valuetext at all
17:46:03 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I think that is clearly a bug
17:46:31 <spectranaut_> sarah: generally it reads the percent, not the aria-valuenow number
17:47:15 <spectranaut_> jcraig: every control is different, for a spin button, I think it reads the value.... but maybe there is a combo of native control and aria and it doesn't do the expected thing... if you  have that monstrosity handy please link me....
17:47:21 <jamesn> ack Jacques
17:47:56 <Matt_King> q+
17:48:03 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:48:08 <spectranaut_> Jacques: I was going to say, for UIA, and patterns that support range, the API takes in a number. IF the number is not available...  I'm not sure if there is a range value that doesn't have a value and supplies text instead that would be difficult for narrater
17:48:51 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: so james, we have 3 slider examples with robust testing in the ARIA-AT reports. So sarah, did you explain what happens today if someone puts "5cm" in aria-valuenow
17:49:03 <spectranaut_> sarah: I made this issue and PR two weeks ago and I would have to re-tests
17:49:55 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: I wonder if the way browsers are doing that right now today, what do they expose. I think we would want that to work the same way, it seems like a good idea, if there is a text string in the native value and it does what you propose, it is exposed as value text, if someone did the samething with valuenow, it would be exposed as valuetext
17:50:00 <jamesn> q?
17:50:04 <jcraig> q+ to say not seeing a spinbutton test in ARIA-AT, Did Matt mean Slider?
17:50:29 <spectranaut_> sarah: that one I might hand off to Jacques... that seems more like, from the browser implementation perspective, that is a reasonablish thing to do
17:50:48 <jamesn> q?
17:50:50 <spectranaut_> Jacques: I think we parse it as a number, if we can't parse it as a number, we throw it away
17:50:53 <jamesn> agenda?
17:51:14 <spectranaut_> Jacques: we expose the value attribute as well as the range attribute. Tools like narrator are looking at the number
17:51:26 <jamesn> ack jc
17:51:26 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to say not seeing a spinbutton test in ARIA-AT, Did Matt mean Slider?
17:51:56 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I'll gen more test cases for spinbutton
17:52:10 <spectranaut_> sarah: I heard general suppport....? yes fall back to value text?
17:52:17 <spectranaut_> (general agreements)
17:52:22 <jcraig> q+
17:52:49 <jcraig> q+ to discuss cloaking...
17:52:58 <spectranaut_> Matt_King: (didn't catch but he had a concern)
17:53:35 <spectranaut_> sarah: I think I'm solving a different, specific use case
17:53:37 <jamesn> +1 to sarah
17:53:44 <jamesn> q?
17:53:49 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:53:49 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss cloaking...
17:54:46 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this reminds me of a few years ago someone brought up that you can use one of these aria properties to lie to the user agent, and actually they were using javascript, this is one of the properties where you can mask or cloak what is visuallly rendered vs what is exposed to the AT
17:54:55 <spectranaut_> jamesn: isn't this all of ARIA
17:55:48 <spectranaut_> jcraig: the reason i thought of this as the scenario that sarah mentioned.. .do you want to suppress the value based on valuetext... the idea that we should prioritize value text in some sort of scenario
17:56:28 <spectranaut_> jamesn: I've seen things like slide where percentage value make not sense
17:56:38 <spectranaut_> s/like slide/like slider/
17:56:47 <jamesn> agenda?
17:56:53 <Jacques> need to drop a little early, thanks all!
17:56:57 <spectranaut_> jamesn: there are valid use cases where we really need to overwrite the value with valuetext
17:57:21 <spectranaut_> zakim, end meeting
17:57:21 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rahim, Jacques, Daniel, jcraig, front-endian-jane, pkra, katez, Stefan, siri, sarah, filippo-zorzi, smockle, Matt_King
17:57:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:57:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:57:32 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:57:32 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
17:58:20 <Adam_Page> present+
17:58:23 <Adam_Page> rrsagent, make minutes
17:58:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-aria-minutes.html Adam_Page
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