19:01:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
19:01:10 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-aria-at-irc
19:01:10 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
19:01:11 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
19:01:24 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
19:01:26 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
19:01:29 <jugglinmike> present+ Chris
19:01:30 <Joe_Humbert> present+
19:01:36 <jugglinmike> present+ ChrisCuellar
19:01:39 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
19:01:42 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
19:06:58 <jugglinmike> present+ james
19:07:09 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
19:07:44 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
19:08:24 <jugglinmike>  Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
19:08:29 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/October-2%2C-2025-Agenda
19:09:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
19:09:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with the agenda as scheduled
19:10:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next CG meeting: Wednesday October 8
19:10:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday October 13
19:10:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
19:10:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Since we last met, we've moved two test plans into candidate review
19:11:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: that's pretty awesome! We're up to 19 plans in candidate review and 4 plans in draft review
19:11:44 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm working on a test plan for check box. It should be ready for review by Monday at the lastest
19:11:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: By Wednesday, we'll have two more new test plans in the test queue
19:12:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hopefully, we'll make some progress today and get some test plans out of the test queue
19:12:25 <jugglinmike> Topic: App updates to make bot more available
19:12:47 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Just this morning, we released some big updates to how you manage bots
19:12:53 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Now, testers can start bot runs
19:13:11 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: If you look at any test plan run, you should see a "Start bot run" button in the "actions" column
19:13:51 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Right now, each test plan run can only have one bot run associated with it. That's more of a UI limitation
19:14:01 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: The idea is that testers will generally start off with a bot run
19:15:14 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: We want to improve the workflow based on Matt_King's feedback. But for now, when you start a bot run, you will see the typical status information on the run. Also, the "start bot run" button will change to a "manage bot run" button. When the bot is done, you can use that new button to re-assign the test plan run to yourself
19:15:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, there is still an "assign yourself" button. If you use that, then your name will be on a test plan run, and you won't be able to assign a bot run to yourself
19:16:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For now, in this current iteration, the "assign test plan to yourself" button isn't particularly useful unless you don't want to use the bot
19:16:50 <jugglinmike> dean: I tried to use it this morning, and I am now signed up twice for it, somehow. I don't understand what's going on with that
19:17:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That shouldn't be possible. Is that a bug?
19:17:18 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Yeah, I'm seeing that, now--for VoiceOver. I think this is a bug
19:17:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the "unassign yourself" button, there?
19:18:00 <jugglinmike> dean: Yes
19:18:22 <jugglinmike> dean: I'll pause my work there, for now
19:20:23 <jugglinmike> dean: I just un-assigned myself from one of them, and they're now both gone
19:20:42 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: You should be able to use the workflow Matt_King described, now
19:21:12 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The state looks corrupted, now, though.
19:21:29 <jugglinmike> dean: Right now, I'm not assigned, but I do have a "manage VoiceOver bot run" button
19:21:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When that run is done, you will find an option to assign yourself in the modal dialog which is opened by that button
19:22:04 <jugglinmike> dean: Okay, I will assign myself when it's done
19:22:52 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running Switch test plan
19:23:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I e-mailed Elizabeth. She hasn't been well recently, but she is going to run it as soon as she can
19:23:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great!
19:23:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The regular "switch" test plan (the one to which Elizabeth is assigned) has no open issues
19:24:04 <jugglinmike> Topic: Issue 1298: Feedback on test of Switch using HTML button
19:24:15 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1298
19:24:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we can close this
19:24:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: dean raised this issue
19:25:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: he is reporting that there is no VoiceOver output in a specific circumstances
19:25:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right, I think we were aligned here. There was no output, and we reported that in the appropriate Test Plan
19:25:24 <jugglinmike> dean: That's right
19:25:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, then I will close this
19:26:03 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Automatic Activation
19:26:13 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Hadi needs to update his results on this one
19:26:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: right. We talked about this last time, during the meeting of September 18
19:26:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm pretty sure we were aligned on Hadi making his report consistent with Louis's
19:27:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But Hadi isn't here today, so I guess we can move on
19:27:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Running test plan for Tabs with Manual Activation
19:27:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're just waiting on IsaDC for JAWS
19:27:25 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We need one more tester for NVDA
19:27:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Since Dean signed himself up for VoiceOver, we're covered there
19:29:25 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I raised issue 1300 before I finished testing, so maybe its not a bug
19:29:30 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1300
19:32:32 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can view my own results. It isn't allowing me to see my results. I can see results from others
19:32:53 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was at the tab panel, then it took me to the tab group, but the assertion expects that you arrive at the final tab
19:33:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: So everything would pass if you did the key press one more time
19:38:07 <jugglinmike> Dean: the bot finished, and I just re-assigned that test plan run to myself
19:38:25 <jugglinmike> Dean: I went to start testing, and it gave me some output. It looks like it works
19:38:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: But you didn't receive any feedback that you successfully assigned it to yourself
19:38:54 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: That missing feedback may be a bug. There may have also been a lag
19:39:08 <jugglinmike> As for issue 1300
19:39:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For JAWS we have three up arrows, and for NVDA, there is only one. Why is there only one?
19:41:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering about Test 4
19:41:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that should also be three...
19:41:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Test 4 wouldn't matter because that's the one where it goes into tab panels
19:42:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's no way to get VoiceOver to do the right thing. I'm just saying that we should have the correct number regardless of VoiceOver's behavior
19:42:54 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: How do we know what the correct number is if VoiceOver isn't behaving correctly?
19:43:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well, if you load that example, then by default, the first tab is selected
19:43:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you just tab to the link in the first tab and then use "ctrl+opt+left arrow", then the bug isn't present
19:43:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But as soon as you activate any tab, then the bug appears
19:43:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And it took three presses in the APG example
19:44:11 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: So that's two tests that I have to re-run and two tests that Dean may have to change
19:44:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes, to record the appropriate (but incorrect) output
19:44:52 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: IsaDC is going to change something, and that will remove some responses from your test plan run
19:45:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You can skip test 2 and test 4 for now, and come back and finish them once IsaDC has made the changes
19:46:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Thank you for catching that, Joe_Humbert! Given how VoiceOver is behaving, it's kind of amazing that you recognized the problem
19:46:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is exactly why we want the test plans to pass through "draft review" because IsaDC, James, and I can't catch everything on our own. This is the process working as intended
19:48:09 <jugglinmike> Topic: Updating reports to latest screen reader versions
19:48:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we now have this awesome capability: an "automated reports" tab in the test queue
19:48:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can instruct the bot to update any report that hasn't been run with the latest version of a given AT
19:50:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are 18 reports that we've completed with the September release of JAWS. I was noticing here that on the "automated reports update" tab, it seems like the only bot that is 100% up-to-date with the latest release version is JAWS
19:50:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We might start with that. I don't want to run them all because that's going to create a lot of manual work all at once
19:50:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I know there is a ".3" release of NVDA out. Do we have that on the list of bot updates to do?
19:50:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There's also a VoiceOver update in macOS 15.6
19:51:08 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I think we just need to carve out some time for those. We can try to get that in as soon as possible
19:51:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I would say VoiceOver is a higher priority than NVDA right now because that one is further behind and because I'm going to have more conversations with James Craig
19:51:43 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: VoiceOver is now on 15.6.1, I think.
19:51:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But it lists "version 15" on the UI
19:52:28 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: This is a UI problem. We want to more clearly label what version is actually available. This is part of the "minimal versus exact" situation which has been confusing everyone for a long time
19:52:38 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: It's a weird quirk of the system that causes it to be rendered in that way
19:52:56 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: It's a problem that's specific to VoiceOver. We are running 15.6.1
19:53:28 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Every Apple OS is jumping to version 26
19:53:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. That's... interesting
19:54:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So in that case, maybe we should run the VoiceOver bot
19:54:23 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: That will use 15.6.1
19:54:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. That's kind of a nicer place to start because there are only seven reports which haven't been run. That seems like such a small number
19:54:54 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Is it taking into account version 1 of the test plans?
19:55:06 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Should it be all of the tests?
19:55:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Right now, the tab shows the reports that are out-of-date. It's only showing seven reports that are out-of-date and not on 15.6.1
19:55:35 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: What should we be seeing?
19:55:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we do have a lot of reports that have been run with 15.6.1 already
19:56:32 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Right now, we have something higher than 15 in the system. The list of reports that it wants to generate new reports for, they are all lower than 15
19:56:45 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Do you want to re-run the ones that were in the lower versions of 15
19:56:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yes
19:57:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But if we run these seven, it will generate 7 new reports. That's not a huge volume, so it will be a good "soft introduction" for the team
19:57:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And when the version thing is fixed, it will probably show another 10 or 11 that are below 15.6.1, but above or at 15.0
19:58:01 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: We might have to do some kind of small fix to make that comparison possible. I'll need to check with howard-e
19:58:21 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: I think it might require a little bit of extra back-end work to achieve that. Just let us know how to prioritize it.
19:58:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we won't ever have that problem with JAWS...
19:58:51 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Yeah, I think this problem is unique to VoiceOver, but I don't fully understand why. That's why I want to speak with howard-e
19:59:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next week, as part of the agenda, we'll be walking people through what we want them to do in this workflow. It's similar to "draft review", but with a little less work. Still, understanding the context is important here
19:59:34 <jugglinmike> Topic: CSUN and TPAC planning
20:00:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There will be at least one CSUN proposal. titled "Who cares if your screen reader says the right thing?"
20:00:16 <jugglinmike> ChrisCuellar: Bocoup also submitted a proposal
20:00:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Great. We'll discuss conferences more next time
20:00:38 <jugglinmike> zakim, end the meeting
20:00:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Chris, Joe_Humbert, ChrisCuellar, dean, IsaDC, james, Matt_King
20:00:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
20:00:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/02-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
20:00:49 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
20:00:49 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
20:00:53 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has left #aria-at
20:01:03 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-at
20:01:10 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
20:01:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items