12:36:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #apa
12:36:54 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/10/01-apa-irc
12:36:54 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:36:55 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
12:37:02 <janina> agenda?
12:37:09 <janina> agenda+ Agenda Review & Announcements
12:37:09 <janina> agenda+ TPAC 2025
12:37:09 <janina> agenda+ New on TR
12:37:09 <janina> agenda+ [Spec review requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues)
12:37:09 <janina> agenda+ [Issue tracking](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues)
12:37:11 <janina> agenda+ CSS Update (Paul)
12:37:14 <janina> agenda+ Other business
12:37:16 <janina> agenda+ Be done
12:37:21 <janina> 
12:37:36 <janina> Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference
12:37:46 <janina> Chair: Janina
12:37:53 <janina> Date: 01 Oct 2025
12:38:08 <janina> agenda?
12:38:36 <janina> regrets: Roy
13:27:58 <janina> regrets+ Niklas
13:36:36 <matatk> matatk has joined #apa
13:36:45 <matatk> zakim, who's here?
13:36:45 <Zakim> Present: (no one)
13:36:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see matatk, RRSAgent, Zakim, kirkwood, janina, Roy_Ruoxi, gb, jyasskin, vmpstr, slightlyoff, Rachael, hdv, chrishtr, alastairc, jcraig
13:36:49 <matatk> agenda?
13:45:14 <matatk> present+
13:45:19 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
13:45:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/01-apa-minutes.html matatk
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14:01:01 <PaulG> present+
14:01:49 <matatk> matatk has joined #apa
14:01:57 <matatk> present+
14:02:04 <janina> present+
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14:02:22 <gpellegrino> present+
14:02:35 <Fredrik> Fredrik has joined #apa
14:02:52 <Fredrik> present+
14:03:31 <Fredrik> There's pools on the roofs in Vienna, too. Matthew?
14:04:32 <janina> regrets+ Neha
14:05:02 <JenStrickland> JenStrickland has joined #apa
14:05:03 <Fredrik> zakim, open next item
14:05:03 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Agenda Review & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
14:05:07 <JenStrickland> present+
14:05:14 <Fazio> present+
14:05:24 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:05:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/01-apa-minutes.html matatk
14:05:48 <Fredrik> janina: Standard agenda today.
14:06:04 <Fredrik> matatk: Proposed augmentation to idrefs, little reminder.
14:06:19 <matatk> Ref our discussion last week on IDREFs: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-apa-minutes.html#5c63
14:06:31 <matatk> Proposing to discuss in APA WG call, probably the 15th (not sure yet)
14:06:38 <Fredrik> janina: This is porposed augmentation that we want our group mind onbefore it becomes a thing. IN ase we have any problems with it bcoming a thing and so on.
14:07:09 <Fredrik> matatk: All that's needing to be said is in teh link.
14:07:21 <Fredrik> Fredrik: Weird grammar, sorry.
14:07:50 <Fredrik> zakim, open next item
14:07:50 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- TPAC 2025 -- taken up [from janina]
14:08:08 <Fredrik> janina: Nothing specific.
14:08:14 <JenStrickland> The only thing I have is that the Sustainable Web Interest Group would love to chat with APA.
14:08:23 <Fredrik> janina: If you think you want to do a breakout, the deadline for proposing breakouts is looming.
14:08:35 <Fredrik> janina: Today is October 1, in three weeks, proposed breakouts are due.
14:08:43 <Fredrik> janina: We are T/6 weeks from TPAC.
14:09:27 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: The Sustainable Web IG would like to talk with APA.
14:09:59 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: I'm co-leading the SWIG. What they're interested in is to best understand how to approach horiyontal review.
14:10:28 <JonCohn> JonCohn has joined #apa
14:10:29 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: I think APA is the better choice for talking about HzR.
14:10:41 <JonCohn> present+
14:10:52 <Fredrik> janina: Is the SWIG going to be Kobe-bound?
14:11:08 <Fredrik> janina: We'll be happy to talk: coordination needed, though.
14:11:14 <Fredrik> matatk: Sounds good.
14:11:38 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: I will be more assertive to the point of aggression with my chairs in terms of pushing them to talk to APAWG.
14:12:03 <Fredrik> janina: You might want to talk to AGWG aobut something, but not HzR.
14:12:47 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: Lots of praise for Janina and Matthew. Well deserved, says Fredrik.
14:13:02 <Fredrik> janina; Committing to spruce up her LinkedIn all the while.
14:13:05 <Fredrik> zakim, open next item
14:13:05 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- New on TR -- taken up [from janina]
14:13:17 <Fredrik> matatk: I think we can skip this.
14:13:27 <Fredrik> zakim, close this item
14:13:27 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
14:13:28 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:13:28 <Zakim> 4. [Spec review requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues) [from janina]
14:13:31 <Fredrik> zakim, open next item
14:13:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- [Spec review requests](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues) -- taken up [from janina]
14:13:43 <Fredrik> janina: Gremlins detected.
14:13:56 <Fredrik> matatk: Some stuff prepared.
14:13:58 <matatk> subtopic: 2025-09-25: DID Resolution
14:13:58 <matatk> current review request: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/127
14:13:58 <matatk> longitudinal tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-longitudinal-tracking/issues/34
14:14:28 <Fredrik> matatk: WE have longitudinal tracking. *Is that lentitudinal tracking? asks Fredrik, if it's late and all)
14:14:45 <Fredrik> matatk: They DID a self review.
14:14:54 <Fredrik> matatk: Against the FAST checklist, no less.
14:15:45 <Fredrik> matatk: Now that the TAG a11y screener is out, for early stage stuff we should encourage people ot do that.
14:15:54 <Fredrik> matatk: For late stage we've got the HTML version of the FAST checklist.
14:15:59 <Fredrik> matatk: Comign up, that is.
14:16:11 <janina> regrets+ Dr_Keith
14:17:52 <Fredrik> matatk: We do have some history but it sounds liek 2024.12.04 we suggested Lionel to review but we don't see any results of that.
14:18:12 <Fredrik> regrets+ Gottfried
14:18:59 <Fredrik> matatk; I think we'll close this one.
14:19:08 <matatk> subtopic: 2025-10-16: Screen Orientation
14:19:08 <matatk> current review request: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/126
14:19:08 <matatk> longitudinal tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-longitudinal-tracking/issues/36
14:19:43 <Fredrik> regrets+ niklasegger
14:20:02 <janina> regrets+ Gottfried
14:20:12 <matatk> subtopic: 2025-10-18: DAPT
14:20:12 <matatk> current review request: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/124
14:20:12 <matatk> longitudinal tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-longitudinal-tracking/issues/33
14:21:01 <Fredrik> Fredrik: sorry, haven't gotten to it...
14:22:20 <matatk> Following back through these links and minutes, we did want to raise the cross-cutting issue about audio mixing and routing, but were happy last time we reviewed DAPT: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/27-apa-minutes.html#t04
14:23:26 <Fredrik> rrsagent, make minutes
14:23:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/01-apa-minutes.html Fredrik
14:24:14 <matatk> subtopic: 2025-10-31: css-color-adjust-1
14:24:14 <matatk> current review request: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-request/issues/130
14:28:49 <Fredrik> zakim, open next item
14:28:49 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- [Issue tracking](https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues) -- taken up [from janina]
14:29:06 <Fredrik> matatk: Scribe takeover time!
14:29:21 <Fredrik> scribe: Fredrik
14:29:31 <Fredrik> scribe- PaulG
14:29:38 <Fredrik> Scribe+ PaulG
14:30:21 <PaulG> PaulG has joined #apa
14:30:27 <Fredrik> scribe+ PaulG
14:30:54 <Fredrik> JenStrickland: Lordy, good rest you!
14:31:09 <matatk> subtopic: [css-overflow] Line-clamp and screen readers
14:31:09 <matatk> tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues/259
14:31:22 <PaulG> matatk: line clamp and screen readers
14:31:51 <PaulG> ...what should happen to clamped content in the axTree?
14:32:22 <PaulG> ... currently, I think, it doesn't work like that in other areas
14:32:35 <JenStrickland> q+
14:33:53 <PaulG> JenStrickland: it's about "fringing" and visual noise on the page. I think the comment here summarizes it well.
14:34:03 <janina> q?
14:34:03 <JenStrickland> ack JenStrickland
14:34:06 <janina> ack jen
14:35:24 <PaulG> matatk: if the point is a preview and it's a long one, you'll be stuck in a preview for a while
14:35:30 <matatk> scribe+
14:35:47 <JenStrickland> line-clamp at MDN: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/line-clamp
14:36:04 <matatk> PaulG: I think the footgun here for authors is that yes, you can put tooltips, and people often do... there are two ways to use the tooltip - for the description or the name.
14:36:36 <matatk> ... If you have a preview in which everyone is getting it cut off, that's a like experience. The question is: is there a way that is discoverable to AT users to get to the full content.
14:36:56 <matatk> ... The pattern would be for screen reader users: if they get the full content, then they find the tooltip, then they have got the full content twice.
14:37:30 <matatk> ... Are we telling authors: make a tooltip, but take it out of tab order? Seems not good for keyboard users. ARIA hide it? Again creates SNAFUs.
14:37:55 <matatk> ... This works so similarly to overflow, why would we do it differently? As I understand, overflow is going to read all the text.
14:38:24 <matatk> ... I think people will put all the content in there, and the tooltip, and AT users will get the content twice if they engage with the tooltip.
14:38:30 <JenStrickland> +1 to Paul
14:38:42 <matatk> ... I think this is the cleanest possible situation or it will be confusing to authors.]
14:38:48 <JonCohn> q+
14:38:49 <matatk> ... So this is the best we can do
14:38:51 <matatk> ack JonCohn
14:39:04 <matatk> s/ors.]/ors./
14:39:14 <janina> ack jo
14:39:17 <matatk> JonCohn: Will the screen reader be able to distinguish that this is a tooltip with the full content in it?
14:40:08 <matatk> PaulG: If I was trying to author this experience for someone with a screen reader and it _did_ limit the text, I would put a description on the item just for screen reader users that said 'use the tooltip to get the full text' as the description will be read. The screen reader is likely to find the full content anyway before the preview.
14:40:17 <matatk> ... Those are also footguns for most authors.
14:40:37 <matatk> ... My guess is there are very few opportunities here to do something that makes sense.
14:41:00 <matatk> ... Having the tooltip for the full text _and_ the preview for the full text is, back to matatk's comment, a problem.
14:41:06 <matatk> JonCohn: Users won't be aware of this.
14:41:29 <matatk> PaulG: There is an APG pattern for it.
14:41:37 <matatk> janina: You have to know about it.
14:41:54 <matatk> PaulG: It has low support.
14:41:56 <matatk> q+
14:41:58 <PaulG> https://a11ysupport.io/tech/aria/tooltip_role
14:42:18 <matatk> PaulG: While the intention is great, the way to carry this out is so limited, we can't expect it to actually work. Therefore you can't use it.
14:43:00 <matatk> ... I think we should let the whole content through, and when the user encounters the tooltip,t hey will at least have all the content, which is better than not being able to access the full content.
14:43:20 <matatk> janina: Nobody listens to the whole thing - you wouldn't get anything done!
14:43:54 <matatk> JonCohn: I believe that JAWS by default ignores tooltips, but not sure about other screen readers off the top of my head.
14:44:21 <matatk> PaulG: When I coach people on how to make a tooltip, I am really pushing for that's a s visual affordance - everything else should be taken care of via aria-describedby etc. attached to the focused element.
14:44:33 <matatk> ... role=tooltip is for visual / future
14:44:48 <matatk> ... It's over-used.
14:45:16 <Fazio> AI overview agrees
14:45:47 <Fazio> Web summary says tooltips are not recognized by AT
14:46:22 <PaulG> matatk: I think I agree it should match overflow. There's pros and cons and notes for the authors. The fact that the role of tooltip isn't supported isn't terrible because the content is associated by name/description.
14:46:50 <PaulG> ...I will draft a comment from APA and we can asynchronously collect comments and post it.
14:47:13 <matatk> subtopic: Add an ::interest-button pseudo element to interest invokers
14:47:13 <matatk> tracking: https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues/258
14:49:36 <PaulG> matatk: the example is a form and there's an "i" button next to the label. They're proposing to make that the pseudo-button.
14:49:47 <PaulG> ...this removes javascript from the interaction.
14:50:51 <matatk> PaulG: Larger discussion about 'interest' came up again recently. One example was carousel 'tabs'. With tabs, we have a pattern: there's a tablist, tabs, and a tabpanel. Their example doesn't take into account how to apply the role. In CSS there's no way to add it becuase these are all pseudo-elements.
14:51:41 <matatk> ... So their whole interest API is devoid of roles that people know and are using in ARIA. That's a problem. This is going to recreate tooltip in a worse way. Because you have this 'interest thing' which has to be focusable so it's keyboard accessible, and now we're saying that its CSS content is to provide the name and description.
14:52:31 <matatk> ... This is very bad. So I raised it on the call. To say we (accessibility people) don't recommend using CSS content for anything other than presentation.
14:52:48 <matatk> ... The house of cards looks to be collapsing - the demos have feature creep and are not accessible.
14:53:52 <janina> q+
14:55:26 <PaulG> matatk: they want to set html attributes dynamically and to do this "correctly" with proper role isn't less complicated than how we do it now without this feature.
14:56:11 <PaulG> janina: we could elevate this to an APA position
14:57:15 <matatk> PaulG: This isn't the issue that was discussed in CSSWG but it's another one - that one was sent back for rework. Once you lay out how we could point to existing HTML content, this proposal doesn't bring us anything. Happy to help edit comment. Demos needed. Theory not convincingl
14:57:23 <matatk> s/convincingl/convincing/
14:58:51 <PaulG> zakim, end the meeting
14:58:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been matatk, PaulG, janina, gpellegrino, Fredrik, JenStrickland, Fazio, JonCohn
14:58:53 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:58:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/10/01-apa-minutes.html Zakim
14:59:01 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, PaulG; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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