14:17:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:17:35 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/29-coga-irc
14:17:35 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:17:36 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:18:14 <Lisa> regrets+ Becca, Jan
14:19:16 <Lisa> agenda+ scribe (and moving the scribe list - see )
14:23:08 <Lisa> Agenda+ Citations  overview
14:23:26 <Lisa> Agenda+ Citations  short notations
14:25:45 <Lisa> item 6 is citations short notation . See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XkQW4iWD_nfUYhKqZWmXy6o1cM_Hy4IpsGgRFqGZP7U/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.cvltb8oa6265
14:27:29 <Lisa> agenda+ moving our actions to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou0f7XCc5nRLhZD462OP5DA-NHqql2YSC8__lncIuxQ/edit?gid=782561551#gid=782561551
14:27:49 <Lisa> clear agenda
14:28:10 <Lisa> agenda+ scribe (and moving the scribe list - see https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.46j7mwxg89xi )
14:28:21 <Lisa> Agenda+ Citations  overview
14:28:44 <Lisa> Agenda+ citations short notation . See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XkQW4iWD_nfUYhKqZWmXy6o1cM_Hy4IpsGgRFqGZP7U/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.cvltb8oa6265
14:28:53 <Lisa> agenda+ moving our actions to https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ou0f7XCc5nRLhZD462OP5DA-NHqql2YSC8__lncIuxQ/edit?gid=782561551#gid=782561551
14:36:48 <Lisa> q?
14:52:09 <Lisa> agenda?
14:55:48 <Lisa> q?
14:55:58 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minute
14:55:58 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'publish minute', Lisa.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:56:48 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:56:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/29-coga-minutes.html Lisa
14:59:38 <Eric_hind> Eric_hind has joined #coga
15:00:03 <Eric_hind> present+
15:01:59 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
15:02:06 <Jennie> present+
15:02:25 <Abi> Abi has joined #coga
15:02:49 <Lisa> next item
15:02:54 <Jennie> scribe+ Jennie
15:03:11 <LenB> LenB has joined #coga
15:03:15 <LenB> present+
15:03:22 <Charli> Charli has joined #coga
15:03:25 <Abi> present+
15:03:28 <Lisa> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15HtPkkYx1CIl6bAwP2nsSZKhqTVbqcuMDRz5RmtmvXg/edit?tab=t.8zemqdwbcwtr
15:03:33 <Jennie> Lisa: Scribe list is now in the Word doc: Coga Action Items
15:03:35 <Lisa> next item
15:03:53 <Lisa> close item 1
15:03:56 <Jennie> Lisa: Citations is next topic
15:04:01 <Lisa> next item
15:04:32 <Charli> present+
15:05:19 <Jennie> Lisa: (reviewing references section - 7.4)
15:05:37 <Charu> Charu has joined #coga
15:05:45 <Jennie> ...2 spreadsheets with research from literary reviews
15:06:08 <Jennie> ...multiple sheets viewable at bottom of screen
15:06:27 <Jennie> ...Working to use format similar to W3C
15:06:44 <Jennie> ...W3C has a style manual.
15:06:49 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:07:10 <Rain> present+
15:07:13 <Jennie> ...w3.rog/guide/manual-of-style/#ref-section
15:07:32 <Jennie> ...w3.org/guide/manual-of-style/#ref-section
15:08:04 <Jennie> ...Supported Decision Making - attempt made to follow this
15:08:33 <Jennie> ...Added the paper name
15:08:43 <Jennie> ...This makes it hard to read
15:09:27 <Jennie> ...References being connected was difficult too
15:09:50 <Charu> present+
15:09:54 <Jennie> ...For literature reviews like Mental Health Literature Review this is proving challenging
15:10:23 <Jennie> ...github area displaying JSON
15:11:06 <Jennie> ...abbreviations can use a script to move information into the W3C format.
15:12:09 <Jennie> ...If you put in the code following what is in the reference section from the W3C manual of style, it will put this in the correct format for you
15:12:37 <Charli> Lisa, please enlarge each of the browser pages you go to. I can't see what you're talking about.
15:13:31 <Jennie> ...For the Mental Health Literature Review (Responses) spreadsheet Lisa is adding information to support the citation process to follow the W3C manual of style
15:13:48 <Jennie> ...That's the proposal
15:14:16 <Jennie> ...Inline put the key in
15:14:23 <Jennie> q?
15:15:11 <Jennie> Charli: Reminder: some attendees need the screen enlarged for each screen.
15:15:22 <Jennie> Lisa: Members: please interrupt whenever this is a challenge.
15:17:18 <Jennie> ...Will do a summary of the previous material
15:17:31 <Jennie> ...Trying to put in citations
15:17:39 <Jennie> ...Using the W3C style guide
15:18:06 <Jennie> ...This includes: short name for a specification, with link.
15:18:39 <Jennie> ...They want you to add square brackets with a link to the section for references
15:18:52 <Jennie> ...This proved cumbersome for COGA
15:19:20 <Jennie> ...Example: there could be multiple references for a particular topic.
15:19:42 <Jennie> ...COGA tried using an alternative method but the names were too long
15:20:03 <Jennie> ...This added a lot of coding in addition to making it hard to read.
15:20:37 <Jennie> ...And, this added the need for an anchor in the references section.
15:20:51 <Jennie> ...Then, when citing something, you needed to reference to the anchor in the references section.
15:20:58 <Jennie> ...Not so easy.
15:21:12 <Jennie> ...This must be changed.
15:21:33 <Jennie> ...(displaying the Mental Health Literature Review)
15:21:49 <Jennie> ...This spreadsheet has a new column for the "key"
15:22:16 <Jennie> ...Assigning a unique key to each citation.
15:22:36 <Jennie> ...Then, when doing the citation: put in the square brackets is the key
15:23:22 <Jennie> ...Then, the github has the same information from the spreadsheet (like the author's name)
15:23:32 <Jennie> ...The github includes the key
15:23:43 <Jennie> ...This has JSON
15:23:52 <Jennie> ...Then, a script goes into any file
15:24:28 <Jennie> ...They keys builds the reference in the reference section, properly links
15:24:41 <Jennie> ...Then authors just need to add the key
15:24:47 <Rain> q+
15:25:27 <Jennie> Rain: I've done research on text someone is trying to read, which has supporting information inside punctuation like parentheses
15:25:35 <Jennie> ...They can make reading quite difficult.
15:26:03 <Jennie> ...The reader is supposed to read the paragraph text (unlinked).
15:26:29 <Jennie> ...For those with a reading disability the punctuation around the links create difficulty reading.
15:26:37 <Jennie> ...What are the alternatives?
15:26:46 <Jennie> ...Can we shorten it to the short name?
15:27:21 <Jennie> Lisa: Proposal: something like instead of it being inline it would be at the end of the paragraph.
15:27:28 <Jennie> Rain: that would help.
15:27:55 <Jennie> ...Also, it would help to have it styled differently: font, color....is visually different from the other text.
15:28:02 <Jennie> ...This provides clarity that it is different.
15:28:08 <Jennie> Lisa: Like italics?
15:28:20 <Jennie> Rain: Making it smaller and not italicizing it might be better.
15:28:53 <Charli> q+
15:28:55 <Jennie> Lisa: They are telling us in the style guide that having the square brackets around the short name, and that takes us to the reference section in the document.
15:29:51 <Jennie> Rain: I think playing with the styling would help so we can ensure it is visually distinct.
15:29:53 <Jennie> q?
15:30:05 <Rain> ack Rain
15:30:05 <Jennie> Ack Rain
15:30:35 <Jennie> Lisa: (notes in the comments the changes discussed)
15:30:47 <Lisa> ack next
15:30:51 <Jennie> Charli: I understand the desire to emphasize.
15:30:59 <Jennie> ...Moving them to the end is a good way to handle them.
15:31:10 <Jennie> ...Also, color contrast will be important
15:31:23 <Jennie> ...(cites the WCAG standards for this)
15:31:32 <Jennie> ...It still needs to be visible.
15:31:44 <Jennie> Lisa: This would receive an accessibility review.
15:31:57 <Jennie> Charli: I think experimenting is a great idea.
15:32:32 <Jennie> Lisa: (noting in the comments) We need to give it a class name so we can experiment with the font.
15:32:56 <Jennie> ...This way if it gets in an editor's draft, if people have challenges with it, it is a line of code we can change.
15:33:00 <Jennie> ...Do we agree with that?
15:33:02 <Eric_hind> q+
15:33:14 <Lisa> ack next
15:33:28 <Jennie> Eric: My only concern: the W3C puts the links at the point of the sentence, which would make this non-standard.
15:33:37 <Jennie> ...Would this be something we need to consider?
15:34:22 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we want it at the end? I think we are doing more citations.
15:34:32 <Jennie> ...Maybe for standards we should do it in the original way.
15:35:20 <Jennie> ...Sometimes the short name is what is discussed in text and how people know it (inline). What about that?
15:35:29 <Jennie> Rain: I think I would need to see how we are intending it to look.
15:35:40 <Jennie> ...The idea: not to make it disruptive.
15:35:44 <Jennie> q+
15:36:01 <Jennie> Rain: This is more about a style guide.
15:36:06 <Lisa> ack next
15:36:56 <Rain> +1 to Jennie's recommendation here. It has to do with the flow of the reading.
15:37:06 <Jennie> Jennie: Maybe we want inline citations more similar and citation only to be more distinct visually
15:37:20 <Jennie> Lisa: We could try it with a single paper and see if we are happy with it.
15:37:33 <Jennie> ...Are we also happy using this JSON format?
15:37:49 <Jennie> ...Putting it in JSON, then just referencing it.
15:37:59 <Eric_hind> +1
15:37:59 <Jennie> Len: +1
15:38:04 <Jennie> Lisa: Any objections?
15:38:04 <Lisa> +1
15:38:19 <Jennie> Lisa: Any other points?
15:38:23 <Lisa> next item
15:38:38 <Jennie> Lisa: Next topic - what is the short name?
15:39:17 <Jennie> ...Laws and references, academic papers, resources.
15:39:33 <Jennie> ...I think we should have different protocols for how we create the keys and short titles for each type.
15:39:55 <Jennie> ...Example: for laws like Section 508, we can use the abbreviation the way it is known.
15:40:11 <Jennie> ...For the COGA 2 Literature Review and update document
15:40:30 <Jennie> ...I created a sheet for standards and laws (bottom tab)
15:40:40 <kirkwood> present+
15:40:45 <Jennie> ...Then we can fill in the information there, and have a different key for each law.
15:41:07 <Jennie> ...Other examples are WCAG 1.1, WCAG 1.2, etc.
15:41:23 <Jennie> ...Are we comfortable using the standard short name?
15:41:35 <Lisa> +1
15:41:45 <Eric_hind> +1
15:41:47 <Abi> +1
15:41:49 <Rain> +1
15:41:54 <Charli> +1
15:41:59 <kirkwood> +1
15:42:00 <Jennie> Lisa: Any objections?
15:42:12 <LenB> LenB has joined #coga
15:42:15 <Jennie> Lisa: Next - citations for papers.
15:42:16 <LenB> +1
15:42:42 <Jennie> ...A suggestion: surname (last name) for single author
15:42:56 <Jennie> ...Gets more complicated when more than one with the same name.
15:43:25 <Charli> q+
15:43:29 <Jennie> ...1st 3 letters based on name of 1st author
15:43:46 <Jennie> ...This gets difficult when in different databases, but this is a technical issue to solve.
15:43:48 <Jennie> q?
15:44:02 <LenB> q?
15:44:11 <LenB> q+
15:44:23 <Lisa> ack next
15:44:35 <Jennie> Charli: Do other W3C papers use a convention like this?
15:44:37 <Jennie> Lisa: no
15:44:46 <Jennie> Charli: why wouldn't we use the full surname?
15:45:06 <Jennie> Lisa: W3C proposes the title of the document or the known short name.
15:45:23 <Jennie> ...The titles are very long.
15:45:37 <Jennie> ...We want our own convention.
15:46:17 <Jennie> ...We could use the row and database we have it in.
15:46:50 <Jennie> ....RMH (resources, mental health) followed by a number
15:47:11 <Jennie> ...RC (for COGA 2 Literature Review and Update) followed by a number
15:47:24 <Jennie> ...The problem identified - they might get out of order.
15:47:36 <Jennie> ...This may confuse people.
15:47:43 <Jennie> ...Though they would be links.
15:48:14 <Jennie> ...But they may be in a different order than they were cited.
15:48:35 <Jennie> ...q?
15:48:45 <Jennie> q?
15:49:30 <Jennie> Lisa: Also, we have to be sure that the different databases do not conflict or overwrite what is in the other databases
15:49:32 <Lisa> ack next
15:50:07 <Jennie> Len: For the new tab/sheet (Other Resources) we don't have a lot of resources.
15:50:22 <Jennie> ...What I did: used keys which were acronyms as a place holder
15:50:35 <Jennie> ...Row 5: M-AA-1 is the one Lisa added
15:51:26 <Jennie> Lisa: I want to divide this discussion into multiple areas
15:51:48 <Jennie> Len: looking at the last row we have a law, but I don't know what the short name of this law is
15:52:06 <Jennie> ...In Row 8, is called The Colby Act - would this be the key?
15:52:10 <Jennie> ...Or Colby Act?
15:52:22 <Jennie> Lisa: How people in the field refer to it.
15:52:41 <Jennie> ...Most people use the short name.
15:52:48 <Jennie> q+
15:52:57 <Lisa> ack next
15:53:44 <Jennie> Jennie: if something has a short name and a number for the actual law, can this be searched in the document?
15:53:49 <Jennie> Lisa: Yes.
15:53:58 <Lisa> ([CSS3UI], section 4.1).
15:54:20 <Jennie> ...It will be in the same reference section.
15:55:51 <Jennie> Lisa: Do we prefer using some kind of reference based on the primary author or 1st 3 letters? Or, prefer reference where it is in database?
15:56:09 <LenB> my perference is where it is in the database
15:56:11 <Jennie> ...My preference is the database 1.
15:56:25 <Jennie> ...Julie's preference: based on the author.
15:56:42 <Jennie> ...But I do not want to vote.
15:57:01 <Eric_hind> prefer database
15:57:05 <Charli> My preference is the database.
15:57:09 <Rain> database
15:57:18 <Abi> database, but without strong feelings
15:57:30 <Rain> If we use author's name, then it should be the full name, not first letters only (more readable)
15:57:46 <Jennie> Charu: I don't have a strong feeling either way.
15:58:02 <Jennie> Lisa: Database is what the group prefers.
15:58:20 <Lisa> RMH- 1  , RCL-3,
15:58:40 <Jennie> ...Does anyone have strong opinions about the number of letters?
15:58:44 <Jennie> q+
15:59:41 <Jennie> Jennie: if we keep the letters for the database, but would the numbers become problematic for some members of the group?
15:59:47 <Jennie> ack Jennie
16:00:05 <Lisa> RM-Smith1
16:00:37 <Jennie> Lisa: you would still need to track that there aren't 2 Smiths in the database
16:00:56 <Lisa> scribe+Lisa
16:01:34 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:01:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/29-coga-minutes.html Lisa