14:59:41 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:59:46 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-irc 14:59:46 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:59:47 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:59:58 Present: Andreas, Nigel 15:00:02 Chair: Nigel, Gary 15:00:11 Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/316 15:00:17 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-tt-minutes.html 15:00:30 Present+ Gary 15:00:30 rrsagent, make minutes 15:00:32 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:00:39 Present+ Chris_Needham 15:00:42 atai has joined #tt 15:01:11 cpn has joined #tt 15:01:15 scribe+ 15:02:08 scribe+ nigel 15:02:25 Topic: This meeting 15:03:33 Present+ Pierre 15:05:23 Nigel: [Recaps the agenda] 15:05:34 ... Anything else to cover, or points on the agenda items? 15:05:35 (nothing) 15:06:00 Topic IMSC 15:07:00 Subtopic: Make the reference to The Unicode Standard undated w3c/imsc#618 15:07:07 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/618 15:07:13 Pierre: The ISO platform doesn't offer URLs to the latest edition of the standard 15:07:23 Gary: Unless we want to refer to Unicode instead? 15:08:18 cpn has joined #tt 15:08:25 scribe+ cpn 15:08:34 Nigel: Why not refer to Unicode? 15:08:56 Pierre: Other specs refer to it 15:09:12 present+ Cyril 15:09:25 ... ARIB refers to collections, and I want to make sure that's in the Unicode standard, not only in ISO 15:10:36 Nigel: I checked the ISO website, they have a mechanism for adding dated and undated links to ISO specs, but I couldn't find access to the database they use 15:10:54 Pierre: Could change the reference from ISO 10646 to Unicode and be done 15:11:09 ... It's free to download from ISO 15:11:41 Nigel: To answer this, there should be precedent from elsewhere in W3C 15:11:46 Pierre: What about TTML2? 15:12:03 ... That references the Unicode spec 15:12:32 ... The ISO reference came up in response to ARIB, but everywhere else we reference Unicode 15:12:52 Gary: CSS Selectors links to Unicode. The two are functionally equivalent 15:13:01 Pierre: I'll just reference Unicode 15:13:05 Gary: Sounds good 15:13:10 Nigel: Sounds good 15:14:14 SUMMARY: Change 10646 reference to Unicode 15:14:24 Topic: Improve the ja character set per ARIB feedback w3c/imsc#614 15:14:32 github: https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/614 15:14:58 Pierre: Atsushi, if I accept both your comments, are you happy with the PR? 15:15:31 Atsushi: The comment about ARIB was just a suggestion 15:16:46 -> Atsushi's comment https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/614#issuecomment-3332729041 15:18:04 Atsushi: The comment relates to the suggested change above. 15:18:21 Pierre: I accepted the suggestion. Is the PR ok now? 15:18:25 Atsushi: Yes 15:18:27 SUMMARY: Atsushi's comments accepted 15:18:46 Subtopic: Wide Review 15:19:07 Pierre: I think we're done with wide review. There's a potential editorial note by APA 15:19:20 wide review tracker -> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/608 15:19:47 Nigel: I don't think we've had all the horizontal review feedback yet. Not clear if i18n is done yet. We have review feedback from ARIB 15:20:11 Pierre: i18n has completed the review 15:20:38 Nigel: It looked like APA is considering feedback 15:21:13 -> https://github.com/w3c/a11y-tracking/issues/252 APA tracking issue for IMSC 1.3 15:22:54 Nigel: Issue 116 is closed. They want us to think about assistive technology users. Good to address as soon as we can. 15:23:12 Pierre: Their concern is how to make an HTML rendering accessible 15:24:47 Nigel: They are concerned about how it relates to CSS vertical-align. You could have a situation where whatever is rendered in a screenreader the styling is lost 15:25:17 Pierre: The fallback is to not have the superscript, which is fine 15:26:01 Nigel: The sub and sup elements could be useful here. Is it OK for a rendering implementation that maps IMSC to HTML to use those instead of font variation position? 15:26:52 Pierre: I'm leery of including very specific HTML rendering recommendations, as it changes often. 15:27:22 ... The browser bug threads say use vertical-align, for maximum compatibility 15:27:54 Nigel: We don't want to get caught into that debate, but adding a note that vertical-align won't report property might be all that's needed 15:28:27 Pierre: I'm OK doing that if it resolves their concern 15:28:55 Pierre: They should propose the Note 15:29:33 Nigel: Can ask APA about adding such a note 15:29:47 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to ask APA if adding a note about implementations using vertical-align would address their concerns 15:30:05 Subtopic: Response to ARIB 15:30:31 Pierre: There were two comments not against IMSC1.3 specifically. Let's figure out how to respond 15:30:31 s/Topic: Improve the ja character/Subtopic: Improve the ja character 15:31:01 Nigel: Yes, let's you and I do that 15:32:01 Topic: DAPT 15:32:58 Nigel: HR feedback: Privacy said no concerns, i18n opened some issues, and no feedback from other groups 15:35:30 Subtopic: Use zxx in place of an empty daptm:langSrc w3c/dapt#322 15:35:35 https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/322 15:35:41 github: https://github.com/w3c/dapt/pull/322 15:36:36 Nigel: Feedback in 321 is that there's a tag for non-linguistic content 15:36:54 ... The zxx language tag means what we want here 15:37:28 ... I opened a PR, to day well-formed rather than valid. And previously the default was empty, now it's zxx, no semantic change. 15:37:58 ... Fuqiao said we could use und instead of zxx 15:38:35 ... Do we think und would make more sense? Then we'd need a rule that no content has a langSrc of und, and introduce an error state 15:39:04 ... Should we change the semantic, and require users to define it? 15:39:37 Cyril: We want to avoid creating wrong documents 15:40:04 ... The attribute is inheritable. I wonder, if the root isn't specified it'll have a default value, overridden at paragraph level 15:40:24 ... Don't know if I have a preference for undefined 15:41:53 ... It's easier to detect if the document was mistakenly left to the default, when it's und, rather than zxx 15:42:01 Nigel: I think that makes sense 15:42:35 ... zxx only makes sense if it's audio description, but probably wrong for other types of transcript. Don't want to introduce a normative requirement on registry entries 15:43:01 ... Proposal is to change the default to und, and add a constraint that all completed text objects have a value that isn't und. Any other views? 15:43:10 +1 15:43:21 Pierre: So you'd require the langSrc attribute to be present? 15:43:31 Nigel: Yes, and the computed value for text shall not be und. 15:44:09 Pierre: Forcing people to put something where they might not understand, they'll put in bad values when they don't know 15:44:36 Cyril: For other attributes, I'd say yes, but you'd know the language you're authoring against 15:45:11 Pierre: If the tool forces you to put something, and you don't know about the weird corner cases, someone might put in a value just to stop the tool complaining 15:46:04 ... Is there a way that if you say nothing, it means "i don't know", no value if the attribute isn't present 15:46:58 Cyril: Either put the default as undefined, and have semantics to say it should be set, or xx 15:47:18 Nigel: Or include in the registry for represents, have a known value of langSrc to use in the original transcript 15:47:42 Pierre: I'd recommend that the absence of the attribute means und 15:48:07 Cyril: Yes 15:48:42 q+ 15:48:50 ack atai 15:49:01 Cyril: So we're saying the default is und but doesn't need to be overrridden by an actual language 15:49:22 Andreas: It would be more transparent to have it specific, and an explicit value of undefined 15:50:31 ... Agree on having the default be undefined 15:50:34 SUMMARY: @nigelmegitt to update the PR to make the default "und" 15:51:03 Topic: WebVTT open issues 15:51:15 Gary: Can skip this given the time available, TPAC is more urgent 15:51:23 Topic: TPAC 2025 planning 15:51:37 Nigel: I've made a wiki page 15:51:50 -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/tpac2025 TPAC 2025 TTWG Wiki page 15:52:18 Nigel: It has a section for participants to describe their arrival and departure. Useful to know who's coming and who's remote 15:52:23 ... You should all be able to edit 15:53:06 ... There's a section on Goals, moving our specs forward. We have joint meetings, with MEIG and with APA. Future work 15:53:26 ... Does anyone have topics to add to the agenda? 15:53:32 q+ 15:54:17 ... Joint meeting with MEIG, TTWG main meeting on Tuesday. I need to know timing constraints for particular topics, especially for remote participants 15:54:34 ... Thursday has TTWG/MEIG/APA joint meeting 15:54:35 ack at 15:55:21 Andreas: In TPAC Seville we talked about the DVB intent to specify subtitle purpose metadata. That's now published, in TV Anytime. Could discuss again, see if it meets our expectations 15:55:35 Nigel: Is it TTWG or MEIG thing? 15:56:13 Andreas: one part is MEIG, but a specific part on the TV Anytime metadata model, was discussed in TTWG 2 years ago, this is more for subtitling experts 15:56:41 Nigel: Having some time to talk about advances in implementations or user communities, who's using our specs and what for, could be valuable 15:56:47 Andreas: Yes, sounds good 15:57:01 q? 15:57:12 ... Activities around TTML, for example 15:57:20 Nigel: Other topics? 15:57:37 Gary: A bunch of WebVTT topics. I'll be remote, so in the morning Japan time? 15:58:02 ... Question is scheduling that vs IMSC and TTML discussion 15:58:29 ... Timing-wise US west coast is a bit easier. For me, 9am in Japan would be 8pm locally 15:59:42 Cyril: Not sure if I'll be there in person 16:00:16 Nigel: We don't have many meetings between now and TPAC. Please contribute to the wiki offline 16:01:04 ... Gary, you could send email to the reflector to ask on scheduling 16:01:24 Nigel: Should we cancel the 6 November TTWG meeting? 16:01:31 Gary: Yes. I can't make October 23 16:01:53 Nigel: So your last meeting before TPAC will be October 9 16:02:00 Gary: I can do it async 16:02:59 Topic: Meeting close 16:03:06 Nigel: We're slightly over time, let's adjourn. 16:03:13 .. Next call is on October 9 16:03:31 -> https://github.com/w3c/ttwg/issues/317 October 9 agenda issue 16:03:36 .. [adjourns meeting] 16:03:50 s/[/Thank you everyone! [ 16:03:54 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:07:07 nigel has joined #tt 16:10:10 nigel has joined #tt 16:12:21 s|in 321|in w3c/dapt#321 16:21:29 s/around TTML/around DVB TTML 16:21:42 rrsagent, make minutes 16:21:43 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:21:55 present+ Atsushi 16:21:57 rrsagent, make minutes 16:21:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:22:40 scribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 16:22:43 zakim, end meeting 16:22:43 As of this point the attendees have been Andreas, Nigel, Gary, Chris_Needham, Pierre, Cyril, Atsushi 16:22:45 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 16:22:46 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-tt-minutes.html Zakim 16:22:52 I am happy to have been of service, nigel; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 16:22:53 Zakim has left #tt 16:23:03 rrsagent, excuse us 16:23:03 I see no action items