IRC log of rdf-star on 2025-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:58:53 [RRSAgent]
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15:58:57 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-irc
15:58:58 [ktk]
meeting: RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
15:59:06 [ktk]
Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/40c79d60-8147-4da7-8185-c39434216daf/20250925T120000/
15:59:07 [agendabot]
clear agenda
15:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ RDF Test Suite Curation Community Group Chair -> 2 https://www.w3.org/community/rdf-tests/
15:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
15:59:24 [pfps]
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16:00:55 [Enrico]
Enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:01:03 [olaf]
olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:01:06 [ora]
ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:24 [pfps]
present+
16:01:32 [ktk]
present+
16:01:33 [ora]
present+
16:01:36 [ora]
chair+
16:01:40 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:01:45 [lisp]
present+
16:01:45 [ktk]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:01:56 [fsasaki]
scribe: fsasaki
16:02:07 [AndyS]
present+
16:02:11 [fsasaki]
present+
16:02:12 [niklasl]
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16:02:33 [rubensworks]
present+
16:02:37 [pchampin]
present+
16:02:39 [olaf]
present+
16:02:43 [Enrico]
present+
16:02:58 [gtw]
present+
16:02:59 [ktk]
regrets+ AZ, tl
16:03:05 [niklasl]
present+
16:03:09 [ktk]
Zakim, open item 1
16:03:09 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:23 [william-vw]
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16:03:27 [william-vw]
present+
16:03:38 [fsasaki]
ora: thanks for everybody having the meeting last week.
16:04:04 [fsasaki]
... minutes are ok?
16:04:09 [ora]
PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes.
16:04:12 [olaf]
+1
16:04:13 [ktk]
+0
16:04:15 [Enrico]
+1
16:04:15 [ora]
+0 (not there)
16:04:16 [pchampin]
+1
16:04:17 [fsasaki]
+1
16:04:19 [lisp]
+1
16:04:21 [niklasl]
+1
16:04:22 [AndyS]
+1
16:04:23 [william-vw]
+0 (also not there)
16:04:50 [rubensworks]
+0
16:04:56 [gtw]
+1
16:05:06 [ora]
RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes.
16:05:12 [ktk]
Zakim, next item
16:05:12 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- RDF Test Suite Curation Community Group Chair -> 2 https://www.w3.org/community/rdf-tests/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:34 [draggett]
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16:05:41 [draggett]
present+
16:05:58 [fsasaki]
pa: rdf test suite creation community group has no chair, gregg was the only chair
16:06:23 [pfps]
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16:06:25 [fsasaki]
... currently the test suites are created by the WG = same people as CG
16:06:35 [fsasaki]
... not urgent, but want the CG to take over once the WG is done
16:06:52 [fsasaki]
... so we need a chair for the CG. If you are interested or know others, let us know
16:06:57 [pfps]
present+
16:07:02 [fsasaki]
adrian: how do volunteer process wise?
16:07:11 [fsasaki]
pa: anybody can self nominate AFAIK
16:08:05 [fsasaki]
... but anyway, would be good to have somebody to take over once the WG is done
16:08:23 [ktk]
Zakim, next item
16:08:23 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:35 [fsasaki]
ora: topics for today: where are we WRT wording of how reifiers are explained.
16:11:04 [fsasaki]
adrian: we want to move to horizontal review. Closing the PRs would help for that (even if it is not absolutely required)
16:11:36 [fsasaki]
ora: niklas is right, we may also just close some PRs
16:11:47 [AndyS]
q+
16:11:52 [fsasaki]
ora: RDF concept PR 237 is ready to merge
16:11:59 [ora]
ack AndyS
16:12:21 [fsasaki]
andy: is ready to go. There is a lot of discussion on the PR which is not about the PR
16:12:46 [fsasaki]
... more like an issue.
16:13:06 [ktk]
q+
16:13:13 [ora]
ack tk
16:13:17 [fsasaki]
... there is material in the discussion of the PR, but we cannot keep PRs open because of long running discussions
16:13:44 [fsasaki]
adrian: we said previously: we merge, and then a new issue can be created. the discussion of the PR is still available.
16:14:07 [ora]
q?
16:14:10 [ora]
ack ktk
16:14:10 [niklasl]
+1 to merge, if the discussion entails another issue that can be raised separately.
16:14:19 [fsasaki]
andy: one can put a summary in of long discussion to make follow ups as issues easier.
16:14:30 [fsasaki]
+1 to niklasl
16:14:38 [pfps]
q+
16:14:43 [ora]
ack pfps
16:14:51 [fsasaki]
ora: can we merge PR 237 of concepts?
16:15:01 [pchampin]
q+
16:15:24 [pchampin]
q-
16:15:35 [fsasaki]
pfps: we do not all people involved in the PR related discussion in today's call
16:15:51 [pchampin]
+1 pfps, the remaining discussion on 237 is not related to the PR, it is more general
16:15:58 [fsasaki]
... my proposal: I will merge the PR and say: we can discuss things separtely as needed
16:16:10 [TallTed]
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16:17:58 [fsasaki]
andy: 220 PR on concepts
16:18:15 [fsasaki]
... was created in july and no update to the PR since then to reflect the conversation
16:18:21 [fsasaki]
ora: suggest to close i?
16:18:24 [fsasaki]
andy: yes
16:18:45 [fsasaki]
... since we do not move towards consensus
16:19:05 [fsasaki]
ora: ok, we better should have a formal vote on this to which we can point to
16:19:05 [pchampin]
i|220 PR on concepts|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:19:31 [ora]
PROPOSAL: Delete without merging https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:19:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:19:42 [Enrico]
+1
16:19:43 [ora]
+1
16:19:44 [niklasl]
+1
16:19:46 [fsasaki]
+1
16:19:47 [rubensworks]
+0
16:19:49 [pfps]
+1
16:19:50 [AndyS]
+1
16:19:51 [lisp]
+0
16:20:16 [niklasl]
Yes, *close* without merging
16:20:20 [fsasaki]
s/Delete/Close/
16:20:23 [olaf]
+1
16:20:26 [pchampin]
+1
16:20:28 [ktk]
+1
16:20:30 [william-vw]
+0
16:20:51 [ktk]
TallTed reports +1 on IRC
16:20:53 [ora]
RESOLVED: Close without merging https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:20:54 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:20:56 [ktk]
s/IRC/zoom/
16:21:12 [pchampin]
s/+1 on IRC/+1 on Zoom
16:21:15 [fsasaki]
andy: I will do that after the call
16:21:27 [pchampin]
q+
16:21:28 [Enrico]
q+
16:22:08 [TallTed]
present+
16:22:21 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:22:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:22:52 [Souri]
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16:22:52 [Souri]
present+
16:22:53 [ora]
ack pchampin
16:23:02 [ora]
ack Enrico
16:23:55 [ora]
PROPOSAL: Close issue #169
16:23:55 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:24:04 [pfps]
+1
16:24:04 [Enrico]
+1
16:24:05 [ora]
+1
16:24:06 [ktk]
+1
16:24:09 [niklasl]
+1
16:24:10 [lisp]
+0
16:24:14 [fsasaki]
+1
16:24:15 [pchampin]
i|PROPOSAL:|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169
16:24:17 [pchampin]
+1
16:24:28 [AndyS]
+1
16:24:29 [william-vw]
+0
16:24:42 [olaf]
+1
16:25:00 [rubensworks]
+0
16:25:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
16:25:08 [TallTed]
+1
16:25:09 [ora]
RESOLVED: Close issue #169
16:25:10 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:25:24 [ora]
q?
16:25:45 [fsasaki]
pa: on rdf-concepts still
16:26:05 [fsasaki]
... two issues in concepts marked as relevant for CR
16:26:18 [fsasaki]
... rdf concepts 79
16:26:29 [fsasaki]
... not blocking, we need to respond to submitter
16:26:35 [fsasaki]
... but we will not change that
16:27:17 [fsasaki]
ora: so we remove the ms:CR tag and someone will respond?
16:27:24 [fsasaki]
pa: yes, and I will make a response
16:28:04 [fsasaki]
... the other issue in concepts: there is a misplaced issue
16:28:15 [fsasaki]
... it is an issue on RDF schema, will not block rdf concepts from going to CR
16:28:23 [pchampin]
i|on rdf-concepts|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79
16:28:26 [niklasl]
1+
16:28:27 [niklasl]
q+
16:28:33 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:29:03 [pchampin]
i|the other issue|subtopic: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8?pane=issue&itemId=89652156&issue=w3c%7Crdf-concepts%7C119
16:29:27 [niklasl]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119
16:29:27 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119 -> Issue 119 Updated RDFS vocabularies for RDF 1.2 (by marcelotto) [ms:CR] [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:29:45 [AndyS]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/pull/64
16:29:46 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/pull/64 -> Pull Request 64 Add canonical Turtle for RDF-recognized XSD datatypes (`ns/rdf-xsd.ttl`) (by domel)
16:29:51 [fsasaki]
pfps: trying to resolve that, so may be a different one
16:29:53 [fsasaki]
pa: agree
16:30:08 [fsasaki]
andy: suggest to add the link and close the issue
16:30:36 [pchampin]
s|https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8?pane=issue&itemId=89652156&issue=w3c%7Crdf-concepts%7C119|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119
16:30:49 [niklasl]
Also https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/61
16:30:49 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/61 -> Issue 61 Ensure text about propositions and reifies is aligned with RDF Concepts (by niklasl)
16:31:15 [fsasaki]
pfps: will add a link to the related pull request in schema and then close the issue on concepts
16:31:32 [fsasaki]
... schema 64 and schema 61
16:31:58 [fsasaki]
enrico: proposal to close things in semantics
16:32:03 [fsasaki]
... PR from ted, can be merged
16:32:42 [fsasaki]
... three blocking issues : 1) related to interpolation lemma, being checked by Doerthe and pfps
16:32:48 [fsasaki]
... proof will not be published anyway
16:32:55 [ktk]
Proof: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102#issuecomment-3333306839
16:32:56 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102 -> Issue 102 Check if the interpolation lemma is still true given the new semantics (by franconi) [ms:CR] [spec:enhancement]
16:32:59 [pchampin]
q+
16:33:00 [fsasaki]
... proof is in issue 102
16:33:27 [fsasaki]
enrico: in RDF 1.0 the proof was there, in RDF 1.1. it disappeared
16:33:33 [pchampin]
q-
16:33:54 [fsasaki]
... next issue, blocking: about appendix A: are the rules complete or not?
16:34:04 [pchampin]
I for one would prefer to include the proof (or at least a proof sketch) in the spec (non normatively)
16:34:04 [fsasaki]
... I say: do not change anything
16:34:08 [fsasaki]
... and this is not relevant in practice
16:34:36 [fsasaki]
... completeness of algorithm does not have practical relevance
16:34:48 [fsasaki]
... suggest to keep text in appendix A as is and close the issue
16:34:55 [fsasaki]
... third point about appendix B
16:35:04 [fsasaki]
... theoretical informal appendix
16:35:17 [pchampin]
i|related to interpolation|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102
16:35:22 [fsasaki]
... hard to follow, mostly correct
16:35:40 [fsasaki]
... not sure why that appendix exists, it is not useful for any reader
16:36:19 [fsasaki]
... proposal: delete apendix b
16:36:22 [pchampin]
s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102|
16:36:23 [pfps]
q+ to say that I'm happy removing the finite model appendix (but add a change note)
16:36:28 [ora]
ack pfps
16:36:28 [Zakim]
pfps, you wanted to say that I'm happy removing the finite model appendix (but add a change note)
16:36:28 [fsasaki]
... these are my three proposals
16:36:43 [fsasaki]
pfps: happy to have appendix B removed, we just need to put a related note
16:37:10 [TallTed]
q+
16:37:22 [ora]
ack TallTed
16:38:27 [niklasl]
q+
16:38:31 [fsasaki]
ted: suggest to have time to check things until next week
16:38:37 [fsasaki]
ora: happy to give people a week
16:38:47 [fsasaki]
... but it should not delay the timing of the horizontal review
16:38:57 [fsasaki]
ted: agree, horizontal review can go out
16:38:58 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:39:07 [niklasl]
see https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-semantics/#dfn-pre-interpretation
16:39:30 [fsasaki]
niklasl: would above definition be problematic if removed?
16:39:59 [niklasl]
This will remain https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#dfn-pre-interpretation
16:40:03 [pfps]
I can't imagine where it would be used.
16:40:43 [fsasaki]
niklasl: no objections from me
16:40:54 [pfps]
q+
16:40:57 [fsasaki]
ora: if we remove these, do we remove them or make them into separate notes
16:41:12 [ora]
ack pfps
16:41:22 [fsasaki]
pfps: appendix will still be in RDF 1.1.
16:41:26 [niklasl]
q+
16:41:35 [ora]
ack niklasl
16:41:36 [fsasaki]
... change note in RDF 1.2 helps to trace the change
16:41:59 [fsasaki]
niklasl: doerthe may have a thought on that, not on the call
16:42:31 [fsasaki]
pa: vote during a meeting is open for a week so that people not on the call can add their opinion
16:43:14 [fsasaki]
ora: let us vote next week
16:43:22 [fsasaki]
... we can hear from Doerthe inbetween
16:43:35 [Enrico]
q+
16:43:38 [fsasaki]
... still we get going with horizontal review
16:43:40 [ora]
ack Enrico
16:44:02 [Enrico]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/159
16:44:02 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/159 -> Pull Request 159 fixing #158 (by TallTed)
16:44:07 [fsasaki]
enrico: to Tex, can I merge the above PR?
16:44:55 [AndyS]
s/Tex/Ted/
16:45:52 [fsasaki]
enrico: graphs have not interchangable models but can be interchanged in these models
16:45:58 [fsasaki]
... a formal thing
16:46:07 [fsasaki]
ted: will take a look again
16:46:19 [fsasaki]
... and then get back to enrico
16:47:01 [pfps]
q+
16:47:05 [ora]
ack pfps
16:47:13 [fsasaki]
pfps: status of IRI issues?
16:47:29 [fsasaki]
andy: little progress because of time
16:47:35 [fsasaki]
... but nothing blocking going to review
16:47:53 [pchampin]
+1 this is blocking CR, but not Horizontal Review
16:48:38 [fsasaki]
ora: anything else before we start horizontal and TAG review?
16:48:45 [fsasaki]
andy: need to start TAG review
16:48:50 [Enrico]
q+
16:48:56 [ora]
ack Enrico
16:49:30 [fsasaki]
pa: before we publish spec as CR we need to get feedback at large beyond the group
16:49:51 [fsasaki]
... horizontal groups in W3C are included: access, i18n, security, privacy, and TAG
16:50:11 [fsasaki]
... TAG ensures that we do not break the web architecture with the new spec
16:50:23 [fsasaki]
ora: that is why we should start soon
16:50:40 [fsasaki]
andy: is it 8 weeks review time?
16:51:06 [fsasaki]
pa: 8 weeks sounds OK, there is no clear time defined in the process
16:51:19 [fsasaki]
... the groups have to do a lot of reviews, so it will take some time
16:51:38 [fsasaki]
ora: so we start the horizontal review and trigger other discussions
16:51:51 [fsasaki]
...once these are done we go for really wide review
16:52:02 [fsasaki]
adrian: do we need to vote?
16:52:35 [ora]
PROPOSAL: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG)
16:52:39 [fsasaki]
ora: it is chairs disgression but we can vote
16:52:43 [fsasaki]
+1
16:52:44 [william-vw]
+1
16:52:45 [ktk]
+1
16:52:45 [ora]
+1
16:52:45 [olaf]
+1
16:52:46 [AndyS]
+1
16:52:47 [lisp]
+0
16:52:48 [niklasl]
+1
16:52:52 [Souri]
+1
16:52:58 [gtw]
+1
16:53:13 [TallTed]
s/disgression/discretion/
16:53:17 [rubensworks]
+1
16:53:20 [fsasaki]
pa: need to identify for which specy
16:53:40 [fsasaki]
ora: concepts, semantics, n-triples go to horizontal review
16:53:44 [ora]
PROPOSAL: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG) for Concepts, Semantics, Ntriples
16:54:14 [pchampin]
+1
16:54:16 [olaf]
+1
16:54:18 [fsasaki]
+1
16:54:20 [niklasl]
+1
16:54:20 [Souri]
+1
16:54:20 [rubensworks]
+1
16:54:23 [ora]
+1
16:54:25 [ktk]
+1
16:54:25 [AndyS]
+1
16:54:39 [william-vw]
+1
16:54:44 [lisp]
+0
16:54:44 [TallTed]
+1
16:55:01 [ora]
RESOLVED: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG) for Concepts, Semantics, Ntriples
16:55:17 [fsasaki]
ora: chairs will take this up
16:55:35 [fsasaki]
... thanks a lot, we made a lot of progress today!
16:55:44 [fsasaki]
.... regrets next week for me
16:56:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html fsasaki
16:56:56 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:57:01 [olaf]
olaf has left #rdf-star
16:57:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
17:05:56 [ktk]
s/separtely/separately/
17:05:56 [ktk]
s/assserted/asserted/
17:05:57 [ktk]
s/zoom/Zoom/
17:06:22 [ktk]
s/creation/curation/
17:06:29 [ktk]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:07:10 [ktk]
RRSAgent, end meeting
17:07:10 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', ktk. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:07:22 [ktk]
RRSAgent, leave
17:07:22 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items