15:58:53 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:58:57 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-irc
15:58:58 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG meeting
15:59:06 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/40c79d60-8147-4da7-8185-c39434216daf/20250925T120000/
15:59:07 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:59:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:59:07 <agendabot> agenda+ RDF Test Suite Curation Community Group Chair -> 2 https://www.w3.org/community/rdf-tests/
15:59:07 <agendabot> agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
15:59:24 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:00:55 <Enrico> Enrico has joined #rdf-star
16:01:03 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:01:06 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
16:01:24 <pfps> present+
16:01:32 <ktk> present+
16:01:33 <ora> present+
16:01:36 <ora> chair+
16:01:40 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:01:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:01:45 <lisp> present+
16:01:45 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
16:01:56 <fsasaki> scribe: fsasaki
16:02:07 <AndyS> present+
16:02:11 <fsasaki> present+
16:02:12 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:02:33 <rubensworks> present+
16:02:37 <pchampin> present+
16:02:39 <olaf> present+
16:02:43 <Enrico> present+
16:02:58 <gtw> present+
16:02:59 <ktk> regrets+ AZ, tl
16:03:05 <niklasl> present+
16:03:09 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:09 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:23 <william-vw> william-vw has joined #rdf-star
16:03:27 <william-vw> present+
16:03:38 <fsasaki> ora: thanks for everybody having the meeting last week.
16:04:04 <fsasaki> ... minutes are ok?
16:04:09 <ora> PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes.
16:04:12 <olaf> +1
16:04:13 <ktk> +0
16:04:15 <Enrico> +1
16:04:15 <ora> +0 (not there)
16:04:16 <pchampin> +1
16:04:17 <fsasaki> +1
16:04:19 <lisp> +1
16:04:21 <niklasl> +1
16:04:22 <AndyS> +1
16:04:23 <william-vw> +0 (also not there)
16:04:50 <rubensworks> +0
16:04:56 <gtw> +1
16:05:06 <ora> RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes.
16:05:12 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- RDF Test Suite Curation Community Group Chair -> 2 https://www.w3.org/community/rdf-tests/ -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:34 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:05:41 <draggett> present+
16:05:58 <fsasaki> pa: rdf test suite creation community group has no chair, gregg was the only chair
16:06:23 <pfps> pfps has joined #rdf-star
16:06:25 <fsasaki> ... currently the test suites are created by the WG = same people as CG
16:06:35 <fsasaki> ... not urgent, but want the CG to take over once the WG is done
16:06:52 <fsasaki> ... so we need a chair for the CG. If you are interested or know others, let us know
16:06:57 <pfps> present+
16:07:02 <fsasaki> adrian: how do volunteer process wise?
16:07:11 <fsasaki> pa: anybody can self nominate AFAIK
16:08:05 <fsasaki> ... but anyway, would be good to have somebody to take over once the WG is done
16:08:23 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:08:23 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:10:35 <fsasaki> ora: topics for today: where are we WRT wording of how reifiers are explained.
16:11:04 <fsasaki> adrian: we want to move to horizontal review. Closing the PRs would help for that (even if it is not absolutely required)
16:11:36 <fsasaki> ora: niklas is right, we may also just close some PRs
16:11:47 <AndyS> q+
16:11:52 <fsasaki> ora: RDF concept PR 237 is ready to merge
16:11:59 <ora> ack AndyS
16:12:21 <fsasaki> andy: is ready to go. There is a lot of discussion on the PR which is not about the PR
16:12:46 <fsasaki> ... more like an issue.
16:13:06 <ktk> q+
16:13:13 <ora> ack tk
16:13:17 <fsasaki> ... there is material in the discussion of the PR, but we cannot keep PRs open because of long running discussions
16:13:44 <fsasaki> adrian: we said previously: we merge, and then a new issue can be created. the discussion of the PR is still available.
16:14:07 <ora> q?
16:14:10 <ora> ack ktk
16:14:10 <niklasl> +1 to merge, if the discussion entails another issue that can be raised separately.
16:14:19 <fsasaki> andy: one can put a summary in of long discussion to make follow ups as issues easier.
16:14:30 <fsasaki> +1 to niklasl
16:14:38 <pfps> q+
16:14:43 <ora> ack pfps
16:14:51 <fsasaki> ora: can we merge PR 237 of concepts?
16:15:01 <pchampin> q+
16:15:24 <pchampin> q-
16:15:35 <fsasaki> pfps: we do not all people involved in the PR related discussion in today's call
16:15:51 <pchampin> +1 pfps, the remaining discussion on 237 is not related to the PR, it is more general
16:15:58 <fsasaki> ... my proposal: I will merge the PR and say: we can discuss things separtely as needed
16:16:10 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
16:17:58 <fsasaki> andy: 220 PR on concepts
16:18:15 <fsasaki> ... was created in july and no update to the PR since then to reflect the conversation
16:18:21 <fsasaki> ora: suggest to close i?
16:18:24 <fsasaki> andy: yes
16:18:45 <fsasaki> ... since we do not move towards consensus
16:19:05 <fsasaki> ora: ok, we better should have a formal vote on this to which we can point to
16:19:05 <pchampin> i|220 PR on concepts|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:19:31 <ora> PROPOSAL: Delete without merging https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:19:32 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:19:42 <Enrico> +1
16:19:43 <ora> +1
16:19:44 <niklasl> +1
16:19:46 <fsasaki> +1
16:19:47 <rubensworks> +0
16:19:49 <pfps> +1
16:19:50 <AndyS> +1
16:19:51 <lisp> +0
16:20:16 <niklasl> Yes, *close* without merging
16:20:20 <fsasaki> s/Delete/Close/
16:20:23 <olaf> +1
16:20:26 <pchampin> +1
16:20:28 <ktk> +1
16:20:30 <william-vw> +0
16:20:51 <ktk> TallTed reports +1 on IRC
16:20:53 <ora> RESOLVED: Close without merging https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
16:20:54 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:20:56 <ktk> s/IRC/zoom/
16:21:12 <pchampin> s/+1 on IRC/+1 on Zoom
16:21:15 <fsasaki> andy: I will do that after the call
16:21:27 <pchampin> q+
16:21:28 <Enrico> q+
16:22:08 <TallTed> present+
16:22:21 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:22:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:22:52 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:22:52 <Souri> present+
16:22:53 <ora> ack pchampin
16:23:02 <ora> ack Enrico
16:23:55 <ora> PROPOSAL: Close issue #169
16:23:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:24:04 <pfps> +1
16:24:04 <Enrico> +1
16:24:05 <ora> +1
16:24:06 <ktk> +1
16:24:09 <niklasl> +1
16:24:10 <lisp> +0
16:24:14 <fsasaki> +1
16:24:15 <pchampin> i|PROPOSAL:|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169
16:24:17 <pchampin> +1
16:24:28 <AndyS> +1
16:24:29 <william-vw> +0
16:24:42 <olaf> +1
16:25:00 <rubensworks> +0
16:25:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
16:25:08 <TallTed> +1
16:25:09 <ora> RESOLVED: Close issue #169
16:25:10 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [ms:CR]
16:25:24 <ora> q?
16:25:45 <fsasaki> pa: on rdf-concepts still
16:26:05 <fsasaki> ... two issues in concepts marked as relevant for CR
16:26:18 <fsasaki> ... rdf concepts 79
16:26:29 <fsasaki> ... not blocking, we need to respond to submitter
16:26:35 <fsasaki> ... but we will not change that
16:27:17 <fsasaki> ora: so we remove the ms:CR tag and someone will respond?
16:27:24 <fsasaki> pa: yes, and I will make a response
16:28:04 <fsasaki> ... the other issue in concepts: there is a misplaced issue
16:28:15 <fsasaki> ... it is an issue on RDF schema, will not block rdf concepts from going to CR
16:28:23 <pchampin> i|on rdf-concepts|subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/79
16:28:26 <niklasl> 1+
16:28:27 <niklasl> q+
16:28:33 <ora> ack niklasl
16:29:03 <pchampin> i|the other issue|subtopic: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8?pane=issue&itemId=89652156&issue=w3c%7Crdf-concepts%7C119
16:29:27 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119
16:29:27 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119 -> Issue 119 Updated RDFS vocabularies for RDF 1.2 (by marcelotto) [ms:CR] [propose closing] [spec:editorial]
16:29:45 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/pull/64
16:29:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/pull/64 -> Pull Request 64 Add canonical Turtle for RDF-recognized XSD datatypes (`ns/rdf-xsd.ttl`) (by domel)
16:29:51 <fsasaki> pfps: trying to resolve that, so may be a different one
16:29:53 <fsasaki> pa: agree
16:30:08 <fsasaki> andy: suggest to add the link and close the issue
16:30:36 <pchampin> s|https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8?pane=issue&itemId=89652156&issue=w3c%7Crdf-concepts%7C119|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/119
16:30:49 <niklasl> Also https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/61
16:30:49 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-schema/issues/61 -> Issue 61 Ensure text about propositions and reifies is aligned with RDF Concepts (by niklasl)
16:31:15 <fsasaki> pfps: will add a link to the related pull request in schema and then close the issue on concepts
16:31:32 <fsasaki> ... schema 64 and schema 61
16:31:58 <fsasaki> enrico: proposal to close things in semantics
16:32:03 <fsasaki> ... PR from ted, can be merged
16:32:42 <fsasaki> ... three blocking issues : 1) related to interpolation lemma, being checked by Doerthe and pfps
16:32:48 <fsasaki> ... proof will not be published anyway
16:32:55 <ktk> Proof: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102#issuecomment-3333306839
16:32:56 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102 -> Issue 102 Check if the interpolation lemma is still true given the new semantics (by franconi) [ms:CR] [spec:enhancement]
16:32:59 <pchampin> q+
16:33:00 <fsasaki> ... proof is in issue 102
16:33:27 <fsasaki> enrico: in RDF 1.0 the proof was there, in RDF 1.1. it disappeared
16:33:33 <pchampin> q-
16:33:54 <fsasaki> ... next issue, blocking: about appendix A: are the rules complete or not?
16:34:04 <pchampin> I for one would prefer to include the proof (or at least a proof sketch) in the spec (non normatively)
16:34:04 <fsasaki> ... I say: do not change anything
16:34:08 <fsasaki> ... and this is not relevant in practice
16:34:36 <fsasaki> ... completeness of algorithm does not have practical relevance
16:34:48 <fsasaki> ... suggest to keep text in appendix A as is and close the issue
16:34:55 <fsasaki> ... third point about appendix B
16:35:04 <fsasaki> ... theoretical informal appendix
16:35:17 <pchampin> i|related to interpolation|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102
16:35:22 <fsasaki> ... hard to follow, mostly correct
16:35:40 <fsasaki> ... not sure why that appendix exists, it is not useful for any reader
16:36:19 <fsasaki> ... proposal: delete apendix b
16:36:22 <pchampin> s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/issues/102|
16:36:23 <pfps> q+ to say that I'm happy removing the finite model appendix (but add a change note)
16:36:28 <ora> ack pfps
16:36:28 <Zakim> pfps, you wanted to say that I'm happy removing the finite model appendix (but add a change note)
16:36:28 <fsasaki> ... these are my three proposals
16:36:43 <fsasaki> pfps: happy to have appendix B removed, we just need to put a related note
16:37:10 <TallTed> q+
16:37:22 <ora> ack TallTed
16:38:27 <niklasl> q+
16:38:31 <fsasaki> ted: suggest to have time to check things until next week
16:38:37 <fsasaki> ora: happy to give people a week
16:38:47 <fsasaki> ... but it should not delay the timing of the horizontal review
16:38:57 <fsasaki> ted: agree, horizontal review can go out
16:38:58 <ora> ack niklasl
16:39:07 <niklasl> see https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf12-semantics/#dfn-pre-interpretation
16:39:30 <fsasaki> niklasl: would above definition be problematic if removed?
16:39:59 <niklasl> This will remain https://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-mt/#dfn-pre-interpretation
16:40:03 <pfps> I can't imagine where it would be used.
16:40:43 <fsasaki> niklasl: no objections from me
16:40:54 <pfps> q+
16:40:57 <fsasaki> ora: if we remove these, do we remove them or make them into separate notes
16:41:12 <ora> ack pfps
16:41:22 <fsasaki> pfps: appendix will still be in RDF 1.1.
16:41:26 <niklasl> q+
16:41:35 <ora> ack niklasl
16:41:36 <fsasaki> ... change note in RDF 1.2 helps to trace the change
16:41:59 <fsasaki> niklasl: doerthe may have a thought on that, not on the call
16:42:31 <fsasaki> pa: vote during a meeting is open for a week so that people not on the call can add their opinion
16:43:14 <fsasaki> ora: let us vote next week
16:43:22 <fsasaki> ... we can hear from Doerthe inbetween
16:43:35 <Enrico> q+
16:43:38 <fsasaki> ... still we get going with horizontal review
16:43:40 <ora> ack Enrico
16:44:02 <Enrico> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/159
16:44:02 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/159 -> Pull Request 159 fixing #158 (by TallTed)
16:44:07 <fsasaki> enrico: to Tex, can I merge the above PR?
16:44:55 <AndyS> s/Tex/Ted/
16:45:52 <fsasaki> enrico: graphs have not interchangable models but can be interchanged in these models
16:45:58 <fsasaki> ... a formal thing
16:46:07 <fsasaki> ted: will take a look again
16:46:19 <fsasaki> ... and then get back to enrico
16:47:01 <pfps> q+
16:47:05 <ora> ack pfps
16:47:13 <fsasaki> pfps: status of IRI issues?
16:47:29 <fsasaki> andy: little progress because of time
16:47:35 <fsasaki> ... but nothing blocking going to review
16:47:53 <pchampin> +1 this is blocking CR, but not Horizontal Review
16:48:38 <fsasaki> ora: anything else before we start horizontal and TAG review?
16:48:45 <fsasaki> andy: need to start TAG review
16:48:50 <Enrico> q+
16:48:56 <ora> ack Enrico
16:49:30 <fsasaki> pa: before we publish spec as CR we need to get feedback at large beyond the group
16:49:51 <fsasaki> ... horizontal groups in W3C are included: access, i18n, security, privacy, and TAG
16:50:11 <fsasaki> ... TAG ensures that we do not break the web architecture with the new spec
16:50:23 <fsasaki> ora: that is why we should start soon
16:50:40 <fsasaki> andy: is it 8 weeks review time?
16:51:06 <fsasaki> pa: 8 weeks sounds OK, there is no clear time defined in the process
16:51:19 <fsasaki> ... the groups have to do a lot of reviews, so it will take some time
16:51:38 <fsasaki> ora: so we start the horizontal review and trigger other discussions
16:51:51 <fsasaki> ...once these are done we go for really wide review
16:52:02 <fsasaki> adrian: do we need to vote?
16:52:35 <ora> PROPOSAL: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG)
16:52:39 <fsasaki> ora: it is chairs disgression but we can vote
16:52:43 <fsasaki> +1
16:52:44 <william-vw> +1
16:52:45 <ktk> +1
16:52:45 <ora> +1
16:52:45 <olaf> +1
16:52:46 <AndyS> +1
16:52:47 <lisp> +0
16:52:48 <niklasl> +1
16:52:52 <Souri> +1
16:52:58 <gtw> +1
16:53:13 <TallTed> s/disgression/discretion/
16:53:17 <rubensworks> +1
16:53:20 <fsasaki> pa: need to identify for which specy
16:53:40 <fsasaki> ora: concepts, semantics, n-triples go to horizontal review
16:53:44 <ora> PROPOSAL: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG) for Concepts, Semantics, Ntriples
16:54:14 <pchampin> +1
16:54:16 <olaf> +1
16:54:18 <fsasaki> +1
16:54:20 <niklasl> +1
16:54:20 <Souri> +1
16:54:20 <rubensworks> +1
16:54:23 <ora> +1
16:54:25 <ktk> +1
16:54:25 <AndyS> +1
16:54:39 <william-vw> +1
16:54:44 <lisp> +0
16:54:44 <TallTed> +1
16:55:01 <ora> RESOLVED: Start horizontal reviews (including TAG) for Concepts, Semantics, Ntriples
16:55:17 <fsasaki> ora: chairs will take this up
16:55:35 <fsasaki> ... thanks a lot, we made a lot of progress today!
16:55:44 <fsasaki> .... regrets next week for me
16:56:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html fsasaki
16:56:56 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
16:57:01 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:57:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html AndyS
17:05:56 <ktk> s/separtely/separately/
17:05:56 <ktk> s/assserted/asserted/
17:05:57 <ktk> s/zoom/Zoom/
17:06:22 <ktk> s/creation/curation/
17:06:29 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:06:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
17:07:10 <ktk> RRSAgent, end meeting
17:07:10 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'end meeting', ktk.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:07:22 <ktk> RRSAgent, leave
17:07:22 <RRSAgent> I see no action items