12:04:41 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:04:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-pmwg-irc 12:04:45 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:04:46 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:04:50 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-09-25: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0034.html 12:04:51 Chair: wendy 12:04:51 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 12:04:51 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0034.html 12:54:29 gautierchomel has joined #pmwg 12:58:15 mgarrish has joined #pmwg 12:58:27 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 12:58:34 Dale has joined #pmwg 12:59:29 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:59:42 present+ 13:00:06 present+ 13:00:15 present+ 13:00:43 zakim, start the meeting 13:00:43 RRSAgent, make logs Public 13:00:45 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 13:01:13 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:01:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-pmwg-minutes.html shiestyle 13:02:15 duga has joined #pmwg 13:02:35 SueNeu has joined #pmwg 13:02:37 present+ 13:02:58 present+ 13:03:03 ikkwong has joined #pmwg 13:04:17 rdeltour has joined #pmwg 13:04:33 present+ 13:05:23 scribe+ 13:05:45 scribe: SueNeu 13:06:52 Topic: Issue #428 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/428 13:06:58 wendyreid: @ivan noticed that we have 44 outstanding issues, we have closed 2, so let's take a look at some of the older ones 13:07:17 …this issues is about media overlays and the pause class 13:07:48 q+ 13:07:53 present+ 13:07:58 ack duga 13:07:58 …this was deferred. No work hasn't been done since an earlier discussion 13:08:01 present+ 13:08:49 duga: The media pause makes sense, on a previous project we wished we had it. I'm not sure there is still a desire for it 13:09:16 …but we should pause this if there are no implementers interested in it 13:09:18 AvneeshSingh has joined #pmwg 13:09:28 present+ 13:09:40 …can we pause this since there is no community interest? 13:09:59 q+ 13:10:05 wendyreid: we have already marked this issue deferred 13:10:26 …so keeping the issue open isn't helping anyone 13:10:27 q+ 13:10:31 ack AvneeshSingh 13:10:48 …perhaps we could close the issue and open a new one if an implementer wants it in the future 13:10:53 ack gautierchomel 13:11:21 AvneeshSingh: perhaps we can give notice and then close the issue in two weeks if there is no response 13:12:04 gautierchomel: this may run into complications with reading systems allowing users to specify styles 13:12:18 …I think we should make a note of this and then close the issue 13:12:30 q+ 13:12:37 ack shiestyle 13:13:05 wendyreid: I like AvneeshSingh approach, add a comment like "speak now" or we will close it 13:13:32 shiestyle: We can simply close this and see if there is any reaction 13:14:05 wendyreid: The problem with just closing it is that it might be overlooked since the issue is so old 13:14:34 …we have over 2500 issues in our repository, most of which are closed 13:15:37 Topic: Issue 2216 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2216 13:16:12 *wendyreid added a comment to #428 asking for comments before closing the issues 13:16:51 wendyreid: Issue 2216 this is concerning language we use to describe creators may be a little to narrow 13:16:55 q+ 13:16:56 https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2234 13:17:00 ack mgarrish 13:17:09 q+ 13:17:43 mgarrish: I think people are not confused about the difference between "must" and "epub creators must set it" 13:18:06 …we don't really have the time to rewrite all of the specifications when the issue was raised 13:18:15 q+ 13:18:22 …how much time will this take vs the benefits it will bring 13:18:25 ack duga 13:18:56 duga: I agree with mgarrish, I don't think anyone will notice and this change won't improve any ebooks 13:19:13 …at the same time, the language is wrong, and it bugs me 13:19:34 …we don't care if the creator adds the metadata, we just want to be sure it is there 13:19:44 ack gautierchomel 13:19:49 …but on the other hand, no one has ever gotten this wrong 13:20:21 q+ 13:20:32 gautierchomel: I see confusion about who is the "creator" when I am doing trainings. 13:20:42 …I would like to see that addressed 13:21:00 …I think it would be worth the work 13:21:05 ack AvneeshSingh 13:21:24 AvneeshSingh: can we do this in EPUB 4 or not? 13:21:38 s/4/3.4/ 13:21:41 wendyreid: or can we do this in Accessibiliy 1.2 13:22:04 AvneeshSingh: can we take this on in the time frame we have? 13:22:17 q+ 13:22:26 wendyreid: we haven't seen confusion in the past, but we may see it in the future 13:22:50 …we spend a lot of time with the spec, but most people rely on the tools or the trainings 13:22:52 ack mgarrish 13:23:05 …as long as those are clear, is this really required 13:23:28 mgarrish: the problem hasn't been in how we word things 13:23:45 q+ 13:23:50 …the definition of "epub creator" is more the problem 13:24:17 …maybe there is a compromise in looking at that definition rather than rewriting all the specifications 13:24:19 ack duga 13:24:36 duga: You just made a good case for rewriting it 13:24:52 …we've spent years trying to define "creator" 13:25:02 …maybe we should try to get rid of it 13:25:45 …but because of the timeline, maybe we just defer this again until epub accessibility 1.3 13:26:08 mgarrish: maybe we start with the accessibility specs and see how much is involved 13:26:24 …then if it is too complex we can dump out of it 13:26:42 wendyreid: I like that approach. Try in the accessibility document first 13:26:58 …to see how hard it is to make the change 13:27:27 …see how useful it is in 1.2 and abandon it if it is too hard 13:27:42 mgarrish: I don't mind taking a stab at this and seeing how it goes 13:28:04 Topic: Issue #2508 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2508 13:28:22 wendyreid: we talked about this before 3.3 was published 13:28:35 …it didn't make sense to put it into 3.3 in a rush 13:28:47 …mostly it was about datasets that could be used in scripts 13:29:00 q+ 13:29:06 q+ 13:29:07 …should we close this? Epub check already has notifications for this 13:29:10 ack mgarrish 13:29:31 mgarrish: we added the ability for things to travel in the container without being in the manifest 13:29:51 …EPUB check does flag this if they appear to not being used 13:30:15 …I don't think anyone has complained about unused issues being flagged in EPUB check 13:30:31 I confirm, no feedback related to that received in EPUBCheck 13:30:43 ack gautierchomel 13:30:50 …Perhaps we could close it off and wait until there is a complaing 13:31:23 gautierchomel: for demonstration I had an EPUB with a resource linked in the metadata 13:31:30 q+ 13:31:35 …and that's when it happened to me 13:31:57 ack duga 13:32:03 …but this is an edge case 13:32:14 q+ 13:32:29 duga: I think cleaning up people's unused files is beyond the scope of the spec 13:32:48 …I bet most publishers send EPUBs with unused fonts 13:33:13 …we could write something that finds those and it would save us lots of file size 13:33:16 for the record, the current behavior in EPUBCheck was implemented and described in that PR: https://github.com/w3c/epubcheck/pull/1465 13:33:20 ack Dale 13:33:22 …I don't see the utility for this 13:33:47 Dale: Is there a use case for something that needs to be there and is not referenced? 13:34:12 q+ 13:34:18 wendyreid: the case gautierchomel brought up is probably the most common 13:34:31 ack mgarrish 13:34:47 …so the certifier report may need to be hidden from the reader 13:35:19 q+ 13:35:20 mgarrish: one use case is a dataset that travels with a scientific publication that may be needed by the user 13:35:33 ack rdeltour 13:35:43 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 13:35:52 present+ 13:35:54 rdeltour: in anycase epub check cannot verify a resource that is used as a script 13:36:06 …if we add this rule it cannot be enforced by epub check 13:36:15 q+ 13:36:18 ack dug 13:36:29 duga: I propose we close the issue 13:37:02 wendreid: yes, let's close it until someone comes to us with a clear use case and a proposal for fixing it, this looks like a black hole 13:37:09 …is anyone opposed to closing it? 13:37:35 wendyreid: I will close the issue since no one is objecting 13:37:48 Topic: Issue #2641 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2641 13:38:22 wendyreid: this is opened by someone running into inconsistency in footnotes among browsers 13:38:36 …I don't think there is anything we can do spec-wise to fix this 13:39:11 …but we have talked about writing and texting best practices for footnotes and similar 13:39:35 +1 13:39:35 …I'd like to close this in favor of our other issue to write something about this 13:39:44 +1 13:39:48 +1 13:39:49 +1 13:39:50 +1 13:40:07 wendyreid: alright 13:40:18 …we're closing it 13:40:31 Topic: Issue #2664 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2664 13:40:58 s/texting/testing 13:41:31 wendreid: we don't have playorder officially from documents since we got rid of the NCX 13:41:35 q+ 13:41:38 ack duga 13:41:44 …playorder is inferred from the spine 13:42:06 duga: I assumed this was to put play order inside elements within the document? 13:42:39 q+ 13:42:46 wendreid: are they talking about reading order within the HTML itself, that comes from the DOM 13:43:21 mgarrish: without George here we aren't sure 13:43:22 ack gautierchomel 13:43:42 gautierchomel: maybe we can tag it with fixed layout 13:44:04 …in my experience in training, we have never had a problem with at fixed layout reading order 13:44:14 …it is doable for now 13:44:41 …let's tag it for fxl and discuss it in the fxl a11y context 13:45:04 wendyreid: yes, let's do that 13:45:27 q+ 13:45:49 gautierchomel: if you have two html files, and the title is part on one page, and part on the other, you may need to do this 13:45:54 ack mgarrish 13:45:57 …but it can be achieved with code now 13:46:11 mgarrish: this sounds like rendition mapping 13:46:24 …he wants to move from fxl to something else 13:46:37 …which is a huge issue we've never solved 13:46:57 …and he wants a new mechanism for moving around within content 13:47:19 wendyreid: I'll leave this alone until we can talk to George 13:47:20 q+ 13:47:26 ack gau 13:47:32 …are there any more things to discuss 13:48:18 gautierchomel: some of the issue topics can be pushed into discussion 13:48:50 wendyreid: we didn't consider that, we didn't have that option in Github before 13:49:19 …we have used issues for everything. Now that we do have discussions as an option 13:49:25 …we could explore this 13:49:49 …we could set up guidelines about when to set up a discussion and when to open an issue 13:50:14 AvneeshSingh: multiple channels of communication can be trouble 13:50:31 …we already have internal reading list, public reading list 13:51:06 sueneuq+ 13:51:09 ack SueNeu 13:51:13 scribe+ 13:51:32 SueNeu: What is the functional difference between a discussion and an issue in GH that makes discussions a better idea? 13:52:00 wendyreid: discussions are designed to be a bit more like talking to people 13:52:16 …the accessibility group uses them, responses can be threaded 13:52:44 q+ 13:52:45 …one of the problems can be hard to follow comments when they overlap 13:52:57 …it makes for a better flow of discussions 13:53:01 ack mgarrish 13:53:34 mgarrish: the threaded replies don't always work the way they are intended 13:53:52 …we would want some guidance for people about when to open discussions and how to respond 13:54:10 q+ 13:54:13 q- 13:54:34 …if you don't have a specific problem you want addressed in the spec it makes sense to set up a discussion even if the discussion threading isn't perfect 13:55:00 wendyreid: I'll do some research on GH about discussions 13:55:24 …this might be more geared toward opensource projects 13:55:51 …there is some merit giving people space to ask a question that isn't a direct issue 13:56:30 Topic: AOB 13:56:30 wendyreid: is there anything else people wanted to talk about? 13:56:33 https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/registration.html 13:57:06 wendyreid: please register for Tpac if you are attending remotely or in person 13:57:30 …we will be putting our agenda together soon 13:58:06 …fyi there is a fee for remote participation, $90 US except for invited experts 13:58:26 If for whatever reason that doesn't work for you, you can apply for a fee waver 13:58:37 …it is usually a simple process 13:58:42 https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1dlfG9mX2mWSGf_Q1LB67OJ_d2UD3IG_X1rfAOTjmb3g/edit?usp=sharing 13:59:09 duga: we have a spreadsheet of people who are planning to attend 13:59:23 …if you post here people will know that you are coming 13:59:27 CharlesL has left #pmwg 13:59:50 @ivan can you finish up the minutes? 14:00:03 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:00:05 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-pmwg-minutes.html wendyreid 14:01:58 zakim, end meeting 14:01:58 As of this point the attendees have been toshiakikoike, mgarrish, shiestyle, duga, Dale, ikkwong, gautierchomel, rdeltour, AvneeshSingh, CharlesL 14:02:01 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 14:02:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-pmwg-minutes.html Zakim 14:02:07 I am happy to have been of service, wendyreid; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 14:02:08 Zakim has left #pmwg 14:02:13 rrsagent, bye 14:02:13 I see no action items