14:01:45 RRSAgent has joined #w3process 14:01:49 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-irc 14:01:52 zakim, start the meeting 14:01:53 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:01:54 Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group 14:02:04 chair: Brent 14:02:18 scribe: ian 14:03:00 agenda+ Open PRs 14:03:13 agenda+ Issue triage 14:04:16 https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/293 14:05:06 Brentz: AB also looking at a process refactoring; will interview groups during TPAC 14:05:32 agenda+ Simplification ideas for the process 14:05:36 zakim, take up item 3 14:05:36 agendum 3 -- Simplification ideas for the process -- taken up [from Ian] 14:06:57 Florian: Process 2020 includes a Rec Amendment process...proposed amendments are included as preview notes. Then there's a process for approving the amendments (using the full process). 14:07:40 ...we also tried to make it easier (fewer stages to go through than the default set of stages) 14:08:13 ...but we introduced some "inconsistencies" compared to the normal path 14:08:19 ...it's kind of weird. 14:08:42 ..in the meantime (more recently) we have simplified the "ordinary" rec track process (and in a less bizarre way) 14:09:03 ...so one simplification is to recast the amendment process to align with the new simplified "ordinary" rec track process. 14:09:27 Florian: Another class of of simplification will be to review (and perhaps remove) some terminology. 14:10:23 present+ 14:10:26 q+ 14:11:14 ack hober 14:11:19 hober: +1 14:11:40 q+ 14:11:41 --> https://github.com/w3c/process/issues/938 Confusing inconsistencies between stages of the REC track for documents and for amendments #938 14:12:40 Florian: Tooling may be helpful. It would be good to have a way to do Rec maintenance without annotations and without dropping quality controls. 14:12:51 q? 14:13:12 q+ 14:13:19 ack me 14:13:24 ack Ian 14:13:39 q+ 14:13:51 q+ 14:13:57 q+ 14:14:02 q+ to lay out my understanding of the plan 14:14:31 ack hober 14:14:41 Ian: What should the CG be doing at this particular time in light of AB revisiting the process? 14:15:06 Brentz: The rough plan is that the Process CG cleans up the GitHub repo to see what issues are still outstanding and have a clean slate 14:15:13 ...so that we have a starting point. 14:15:22 ..that's what the AB wants the CG to start with. 14:15:46 ..meanwhile the AB will formulate a questionnaire and plans to get feedback from the community 14:15:46 q+ 14:16:07 brentz: The AB will then collate information and that will inform AB plans for a more significant refactor. 14:16:30 ...survey will inform how significant the refactoring should be 14:17:05 ...in addition to cleaning up the GitHub repo, the AB would like to hear from the CG input on what should stay and what should be simplified. 14:17:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-minutes.html Ian 14:18:10 q? 14:18:18 ack hober 14:19:14 hober: Regarding simplifying the amendment process: the 2020 process has been in place for about 5 years. How many times has someone tried to use this amendment process? 14:19:26 plh: 4 or 5 14:19:56 Florian: That's the number of times amended specs have graduated. 14:20:24 q+ TallTed 14:20:49 hober: Chicken and egg problem if the tooling is important to making this process easier. 14:21:13 ...it would be good to know (but hard to measure) how many people were scared off before trying this process. 14:21:32 anecdotally, at least two of my group haven't even attempted the amendment process when updating specs 14:21:33 ...maybe we don't need the amendment process at all 14:21:38 ack plh 14:22:05 plh: My advice would be to talk to the Chairs before doing anything. 14:22:21 ...we are struggling to get specs maintained. It's hard to find people to maintain specifications; it's not the process. 14:22:25 ack brentz 14:22:27 brentz, you wanted to lay out my understanding of the plan 14:23:58 +10000 plh 14:24:02 plh: It's not a tooling issue. People just want to edit a single document and not have to deal with annotations. Before designing a solution, please wait for TPAC discussion. Need to find out how to make maintenance as low cost as possible. 14:24:06 ack tidoust 14:24:09 ack tidoust 14:24:22 tidoust: I see 4 ways to maintain a spec in the W3C process. 14:24:34 ...(tidoust mentions all of them) 14:24:51 ...some groups use different approaches (e.g., delta specs and CSS WG) 14:25:06 ...my concern is that I don't know as TC what to recommend among the four approaches. 14:25:38 ...the nuances are thin to me. It would be good if we could simplify that. 14:25:45 ...or at least explain the differences. 14:25:46 ack florian 14:25:49 +10000 tidoust 14:26:44 Florian: There are different approaches for different preferences. Where it gets tricky is that people want to get the Rec stamp without doing all the work. 14:28:06 ...what we do depends on what we want (e.g., quality controls, patent policy, etc.) 14:28:34 ...the area where we can simplify is amendments 14:29:18 Florian: In terms of effort, the thing I'm proposing is "medium effort" 14:29:33 ...if we are planning a major revamp, then we should not do it yet. 14:29:50 ack Ian 14:32:36 q? 14:33:05 ack TallTed 14:33:23 TallTed: Tess asked about whether people have tried to do maintenance 14:33:41 ...several groups in which I participated have tried to do the proposed changes w/ markup 14:33:44 ..it's painful 14:34:51 TallTed: -1 to benign editor model. Editors are doing a difficult task but I think that some people do a better job than others representing the will of the group 14:35:14 q+ 14:36:15 TallTed: I've seen editors rewrite documents over a weekend, for example 14:37:07 TallTed: I think not all recs need to go through the full Rec track process. 14:37:11 ...but many do 14:37:39 ...there has to be a better way of tracking changes, flagging proposed changes with rationale; but manual markup is painful. 14:37:54 ack florian 14:38:26 Florian: The WHATWG has a small number of very senior editors; W3C has more editors and this diversity suggests more guardrails. 14:38:41 Topic: PRs 14:38:48 q+ 14:38:56 https://github.com/w3c/process/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+sort%3Aupdated-asc 14:39:10 zakim, close item 3 14:39:10 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Ian 14:39:19 queue== 14:39:20 zakim, close item 3 14:39:21 agendum 3, Simplification ideas for the process, closed 14:39:21 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:39:21 1. Open PRs [from Ian] 14:39:24 zakim, take up item 1 14:39:24 agendum 1 -- Open PRs -- taken up [from Ian] 14:39:26 q+ Florian 14:39:37 ack florian 14:39:41 [1083] 14:40:01 https://github.com/w3c/process/pull/1083 14:40:05 +1 to Florian 14:40:13 +1 to merge 14:40:21 RESOLVED: Merge 1083 14:40:32 https://github.com/w3c/process/pulls 14:41:24 Florian: A number of PRs depend on the AB (and/or TAG) 14:41:33 ...I'm not comfortable landing anything prior to having AB direction. 14:42:03 q+ 14:42:31 q- 14:44:19 brentz: In the absence of direction from the AB would be merge things into an AB/TAG branch that the AB can look at during its considerations. 14:44:25 q+ 14:44:37 hober: I'm fine with that 14:45:13 hober: I think the AB is unlikely to come back to some of these issues immediately. 14:45:45 +1 to have a separate branch 14:46:06 Florian: I'm generally fine with a separate branch, but it's very important to communicate clearly this is a separate branch that does not represent AB-approved content 14:46:18 Brentz: I will be the point person if concerns arise. 14:46:36 q+ 14:46:39 ack florian 14:47:43 ack Ian 14:47:46 ACTION: Brent to ensure the AB is onboard with this plan to create a branch, and will proactively let the TAG chairs know the plan regarding a new branch 14:49:37 Ian: I propose we prioritize edits that help get work done, and deprioritize org topics 14:49:51 Hober: The AB is interested in both sides of the house: group work and org/governance 14:50:06 brentz: I think the AB is also looking into modularization 14:50:23 q? 14:50:38 https://github.com/w3c/process/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Topic%3A+AB%2FTAG+discipline%22 14:50:46 brentz: I will be looking at ll the PRs with the AB/TAG discipline topic 14:51:02 ACTION: Florian to merge those PRs and if issues with merging arise, reach out to the CG 14:51:32 zakim, close item 1 14:51:32 agendum 1, Open PRs, closed 14:51:33 I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 14:51:33 2. Issue triage [from Ian] 14:52:35 https://github.com/w3c/process/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20state%3Aopen%20sort%3Aupdated-asc 14:53:40 https://github.com/w3c/process/issues/1073 14:54:14 Florian: I think that 1073 can be addressed in pubrules rather than in the process. 14:54:30 brentz: Reading it, I'm thinking similarly. 14:54:59 q+ 14:55:29 q+ 14:55:44 q- 14:55:49 ack plh 14:56:00 ack plh 14:56:03 present+ fantasai 14:56:15 plh: Our registries document how they are to be modified. 14:56:30 ...and the processes may be different. 14:56:43 ..the process document does not (and should not) define a single registry update processes. 14:57:58 discussing https://github.com/w3c/process/issues/326 14:58:30 Ian: Suggest we close 326 because we are working on this and it's very high level 14:58:45 (We add tab "propose to close') 14:58:55 Ian: Also suggest home work that people look at issues to close 14:59:06 Florian: I also suggest chatting with Brent to find issues to close 14:59:13 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-minutes.html Ian 15:02:51 previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/08/27-w3process-minutes.html 15:02:51 next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/10/08-w3process-minutes.html 15:03:14 fantasai has joined #w3process 15:03:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-minutes.html TallTed 15:05:45 i/chair: Brent/agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/22a219df-1882-4759-ba84-fd0b4ade9f21/20250924T100000/ 15:05:58 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-minutes.html TallTed 15:06:08 fantasai has joined #w3process 15:34:18 present+ Brentz, Florian, Ian, plh, TallTed, tidoust 15:34:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/24-w3process-minutes.html TallTed 16:30:02 brentz has joined #w3process