14:01:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-irc
14:01:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:10 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
14:01:10 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:01:11 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:01:16 <bbailey> bbailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:17 <maryjom> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller
14:01:23 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:01:31 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:01:31 <maryjom> agenda+ Announcements
14:01:37 <maryjom> agenda+ 2.4.4 Link Purpose Note 1 – Issue 775
14:01:42 <maryjom> agenda+ 1.4.4 Resize Text – Issue 722
14:01:45 <bbailey> present+
14:01:47 <maryjom> agenda+ WCAG2Mobile issues to open
14:01:53 <maryjom> regrets:  Chris Loiselle
14:02:00 <PhilDay> present+
14:02:02 <GreggVan> present+
14:02:13 <loicmn> present+
14:02:39 <PhilDay> scribe+ PhilDay
14:02:55 <PhilDay> agenda?
14:03:06 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:03:06 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:04:21 <PhilDay> EN - all comments have to be in by end of Sept. Goes out to JTB vote, then out for ballot to all members for a yes/no vote.
14:04:29 <PhilDay> s/comments/changes
14:05:02 <PhilDay> AG meeting - maryjom mentioned that we want to add minor changes to harmonise with EN - and then issue an updated release to the WCAG2ICT note
14:05:50 <PhilDay> TPAC is coming up, and there are some publication blackouts - so schedule may have to be tweaked slightly
14:06:32 <PhilDay> GreggVan: How critical is it that we publish updates in WCAG2ICT - as long as the changes go into this version of EN
14:06:50 <PhilDay> maryjom: Good point - wondered if EN would reference a dated version.
14:07:06 <PhilDay> ... Also want to maintain consistency with latest version if possible. maryjom will follow up with Mike Pluke
14:07:12 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:07:12 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 2.4.4 Link Purpose Note 1 – Issue 775 -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:07:32 <PhilDay> agenda?
14:07:53 <LauraM> LauraM has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:07:55 <maryjom> zakim, clear agenda
14:07:55 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:07:58 <LauraM> present+
14:08:03 <PhilDay> agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus - Note 3 (Issue 773)
14:08:14 <GreggVan> present+
14:08:33 <maryjom> AGENDA+: 1.3.4 Orientation - Note 1 (Issue 779)
14:08:54 <maryjom> AGENDA+ 1.4.4 Resize Text - possible minor update to Note
14:09:09 <maryjom> Agenda+ 2.4.2 Page Titled - application of SC to non-web docs?
14:09:11 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:09:11 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus - Note 3 (Issue 773) -- taken up [from PhilDay]
14:09:13 <maryjom> agenda?
14:09:38 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/773
14:09:39 <maryjom> Link to issue 773: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/773
14:09:51 <maryjom> Link to PR 778: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/778
14:10:02 <PhilDay> maryjom noticed on reviewing EN 301 549 - one of our notes used the word page, and we didn't do a word replacement
14:10:18 <PhilDay> Text from issue: Current WCAG2ICT content for Note 3 in 11.1.4.13 Content on hover or focus states (with emphasis added by me on the words "a page":
14:10:18 <PhilDay> Note 3
14:10:18 <PhilDay> This criterion applies to content that appears in addition to the triggering component itself. Since hidden components that are made visible on keyboard focus (such as links used to skip to another part of a page) do not present additional content they are not covered by this criterion.
14:10:18 <PhilDay> The question is, in other cases we replace "page" with “page” with “non-web document or software”. I'm thinking we should do that here as well - maybe replacing "a page" with "the non-web document or software" so the English makes sense when those get split out into a requirement for non-web documents and a requirement for non-web software.
14:10:20 <PhilDay> Another question is whether "links" should be "links or other interactive elements" or "links or other UI controls".
14:10:20 <PhilDay> That way the note might read:
14:10:20 <PhilDay> Note 3
14:10:21 <PhilDay> This criterion applies to content that appears in addition to the triggering component itself. Since hidden components that are made visible on keyboard focus (such as links or other UI controls used to skip to another part of the non-web document or software) do not present additional content they are not covered by this criterion.
14:10:25 <bbailey> q+ to ask if this one we separate, i think not
14:10:41 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:10:41 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to ask if this one we separate, i think not
14:11:45 <PhilDay> bbailey: it doesn't read well to substitute (singular) page for (plural) non-web software or documents.
14:12:15 <PhilDay> PhilDay: Answer to bbailey's question. 1.4.13 has both non-web documents and software together
14:12:35 <PhilDay> https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#applying-sc-1-4-13-content-on-hover-or-focus-to-non-web-documents-and-software
14:13:26 <PhilDay> [maryjom sharing screen to show PR 778]
14:14:03 <PhilDay> Proposal is in PR https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/778
14:14:50 <PhilDay> q+ to say there is a change to line 348 as well in this PR
14:14:55 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:14:55 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to say there is a change to line 348 as well in this PR
14:15:53 <PhilDay> Clarification - only change is word sub for page.
14:15:53 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: For SC 1.3.4 Note 1, merge PR #780 into the editor’s draft as-is
14:15:56 <PhilDay> +1 for proposal
14:15:58 <loicmn> +1
14:16:05 <GreggVan> +1
14:16:06 <bbailey> +1
14:16:09 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: For SC 1.3.4 Note 1, merge PR #780 into the editor’s draft as-is
14:16:14 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:16:14 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.3.4 Orientation - Note 1 (Issue 779) -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:16:36 <bbailey> I will retract my suggestion the GitHub, I am swayed!
14:17:00 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/779
14:17:06 <maryjom> s/For SC 1.3.4 Note 1, merge PR #780/For SC 1.4.13 Note 3, merge PR #778/
14:17:14 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
14:17:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
14:17:51 <PhilDay> Detail from issue: The EN 301 549 has modifed part of Note 1 to remove "or that has no sensor to detect or change the orientation" because it inadvertently provides an "out" for content that is viewed on a displays that can change orientation manually (with user settings).
14:17:51 <PhilDay> Additionally, the EN 301 549 only applies this note to non-web software - not to clause 10.1.3.4 for non-web documents.
14:17:51 <PhilDay> Existing Note 1:
14:17:51 <PhilDay> NOTE 1 (ADDED)
14:17:52 <PhilDay> Content that is only used on hardware with a fixed display orientation or that has no sensor to detect or change the orientation is covered under the essential exception and does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:17:52 <PhilDay> Proposed updated Note 1, and only have this be a note for non-web software:
14:17:52 <PhilDay> NOTE 1 (ADDED) (FOR NON-WEB SOFTWARE)
14:17:53 <PhilDay> Content that is only used on hardware with a fixed display orientation where a user cannot change the orientation is covered under the essential exception and does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:18:03 <PhilDay> Proposal in PR: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/779
14:18:50 <bbailey> q+ i don't like this one
14:19:03 <bbailey> q+ to say its too wide a loophole
14:19:07 <PhilDay> Another change prompted by EN. They made a minor change to this note - we are mirroring the change
14:19:16 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:19:16 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to say its too wide a loophole
14:20:11 <PhilDay> bbailey: Thinks it gives a loophole that should not be there - if it has no sensor, then it cannot do this.
14:20:33 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Argued for the change. What does the sensor have to do with it?
14:20:44 <PhilDay> ... Issue is if it can be changed automaticalyl
14:20:52 <PhilDay> s/automaticalyl/automatically
14:21:16 <PhilDay> GreggVan likes the change - it doesn't reference the presence of a sensor - just whether the orientation cannot be changed.
14:22:05 <bbailey> q+ that it excuses a hand-held tablet which works only in a single orientation
14:22:14 <loicmn> +1
14:22:32 <PhilDay> bbailey: Thinks it could be used as an excuse for having a tablet that only works in a single orientation
14:22:50 <maryjom> q?
14:23:04 <PhilDay> q+
14:23:07 <bbailey> i agree that a digital hand-held thermometer (or whatever) should not have to be capable of changing orientation
14:23:17 <bbailey> q+
14:23:25 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:24:28 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Thinks that some devices that can be turned may not need to reorient the display - so maybe this requires more than is sensible.
14:24:39 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:24:48 <PhilDay> maryjom: Many of these examples are closed - maybe we should have an exemption for closed
14:25:49 <PhilDay> bbailey: If you have a product that doesn't change orientation, but you'd like it to - agree that the sensor does not matter.
14:26:35 <PhilDay> Text of provision: https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#orientation
14:27:06 <PhilDay> 1.3.4 Orientation.
14:27:07 <PhilDay> (Level AA)
14:27:07 <PhilDay> Content does not restrict its view and operation to a single display orientation, such as portrait or landscape, unless a specific display orientation is essential.
14:27:07 <PhilDay> NOTE
14:27:07 <PhilDay> Examples where a particular display orientation may be essential are a bank check, a piano application, slides for a projector or television, or virtual reality content where content is not necessarily restricted to landscape or portrait display orientation.
14:27:07 <PhilDay> Applying SC 1.3.4 Orientation to Non-Web Documents and Software
14:27:07 <PhilDay> This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 1.3.4.
14:27:08 <PhilDay> NOTE 1 (ADDED)
14:27:08 <PhilDay> Content that is only used on hardware with a fixed display orientation or that has no sensor to detect or change the orientation is covered under the essential exception and does not need to provide support for orientation changes.
14:27:08 <PhilDay> NOTE 2 (ADDED) (FOR NON-WEB SOFTWARE)
14:27:09 <PhilDay> See also the Comments on Closed Functionality.
14:28:25 <PhilDay> bbailey: Simple handheld calculator - the SC applies, but NOTE 1 is clarifying what constitutes an essential exemption. Why add something about a sensor?
14:28:42 <PhilDay> bbailey: misunderstood - thought the change was to add the requirement for a sensor.
14:29:01 <PhilDay> bbailey: Now happy with the proposal.
14:31:03 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Further discussion about small devices like digital thermometer, smartwatch etc - if it can be rotated
14:31:59 <loicmn> q+ to say that content authors can "block" orientation changes on portable devices
14:32:05 <maryjom> q?
14:32:09 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:32:09 <Zakim> loicmn, you wanted to say that content authors can "block" orientation changes on portable devices
14:33:08 <PhilDay> loicmn: Issue is that web developers block the ability to change orientation - so somebody can rotate their device, but the web developer has forced the layout to be fixed and not react to changes to the device orientation (through CSS).
14:33:34 <PhilDay> ... That is what the original WCAG SC was concerned with
14:33:37 <bbailey> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/Understanding/orientation.html
14:34:24 <bbailey> Some websites and applications automatically set and restrict the screen to a particular display orientation and expect that users will respond by rotating their device to match, but this can create problems.
14:34:55 <bbailey> An example is a PDF with mixed page orientation.
14:36:17 <LauraM> q+
14:36:31 <loicmn> For example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/38359782/how-to-lock-viewport-to-portrait-orientation-in-html5-css3
14:36:32 <bbailey> Changing orientation sometimes break reflow (which is a separate SC) but this use case is more common than poor support for reflow.
14:36:37 <loicmn> q+
14:36:57 <maryjom> ack LauraM
14:37:22 <PhilDay> ack loicmn
14:37:26 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:37:37 <PhilDay> loicmn: Posted link on how orientation change can be blocked
14:37:51 <PhilDay> This SC tells you not to do that blocking
14:37:57 <GreggVan> q+
14:38:17 <PhilDay> loicmn: Showing an example of how it can be blocked - not good practice but it is possible.
14:38:46 <PhilDay> LauraM: Can we use the queue - so not interrupting.
14:38:46 <maryjom> q?
14:38:46 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:38:46 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:39:24 <PhilDay> GreggVan: The fact that it can be done is why we give guidance on not doing it. It should not be possible for content to dictate that it cannot be viewed in a different orientation.
14:40:06 <PhilDay> ... Concern - as written - it doesn't limit the application enough - so it applies to everything including calculators, watches, etc.
14:42:50 <maryjom> This SC should only apply where the non-web software is designed for a device where content can be viewed in landscape and portrait.
14:42:57 <PhilDay> maryjom shares an early draft
14:44:28 <maryjom> This success criterion should only apply where the non-web software is to be used on a device where content can be viewed in landscape and portrait.
14:44:30 <bbailey> I agree that the regulation concept of "fundamental alteration" falls under WCAG usage of "essential".
14:44:44 <bbailey> q+
14:44:50 <loicmn> Content that is only used on a device that can only be used in a specific orientation is covered under the essential exception ...
14:44:52 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:44:52 <loicmn> q+
14:44:54 <PhilDay> ack bbailey
14:45:14 <PhilDay> bbailey We should use the EN language if we can.
14:45:39 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Thinks the EN language should be changed as well.
14:45:55 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:45:55 <PhilDay> loicmn
14:46:16 <PhilDay> loicmn: Proposed a modified version to avoid use of "should"
14:46:32 <GreggVan> q+
14:46:32 <bbailey> If wcag2ict can lead the EN phrasing, GREAT !
14:46:39 <PhilDay> +1 for Loic's modification
14:46:58 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:47:05 <bbailey> I agree we need to avoid "should"
14:47:16 <PhilDay> GreggVan: That won't work - my watch can be viewed in the other orientation.
14:48:42 <PhilDay> q+ to ask if we are proposing changing note 1, and then adding note 3
14:49:05 <bbailey> I am okay with LCD strips of characters to be considered as falling under "essential"
14:49:08 <PhilDay> GreggVan: If some things are in 1 orientation, and others are in the other orientation, if they cannot change it -then it is a problem
14:49:32 <PhilDay> They don't have software that is designed to work in both orientations -
14:49:33 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:49:35 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to ask if we are proposing changing note 1, and then adding note 3
14:50:14 <GreggVan> q=
14:50:20 <GreggVan> Q+
14:50:21 <PhilDay> maryjom: Think it is 2 notes, or 1 note & a precondition
14:50:35 <PhilDay> ack GreggVan
14:50:36 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
14:51:13 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Should be added to the this applies - change the content - we don't want EN to add a note. We want the guidance to change where to apply it.
14:51:31 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Will draft content
14:51:34 <PhilDay> zakim, next item
14:51:34 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 1.4.4 Resize Text - possible minor update to Note -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:51:55 <maryjom> Link to issue 772: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/772
14:52:05 <maryjom> Last PR 776: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/776
14:53:47 <PhilDay> Added non-web software to what we had last week.
14:53:48 <PhilDay> NOTE 4 (ADDED) (FOR NON-WEB SOFTWARE)
14:53:48 <PhilDay> For non-web software expected to be viewed at a distance of approximately 15 3/4 inches (400mm), good practice is for the default presentation for text to have an x-height that is at least as big as Arial font at 16 CSS px, which at 200% zoom would be 32 CSS px.
14:54:38 <PhilDay> But did notice when reviewed the EN, noticed that non-web document 10.1.4.4 had a similar clause but was different to this, and different to 11.1.4.4.
14:54:38 <PhilDay> Proposal is to just say content- and apply to non web documents and software
14:54:43 <PhilDay> (Or use the same note in both places)
14:55:10 <bbailey> +1 to keep phrasing consistent both places
14:55:10 <PhilDay> +1 to the change
14:55:29 <loicmn> +1 to have the same text in both places
14:55:32 <bbailey> q+ to say missing 2nd x-height
14:55:38 <PhilDay> +1 to use in both places
14:55:41 <PhilDay> q?
14:55:49 <maryjom> ack bbailey
14:55:49 <Zakim> bbailey, you wanted to say missing 2nd x-height
14:55:59 <GreggVan> q+ to add  "this SC applies to non-web software if it is limied to only 'non-web software that is intended to be run on devices that supports software in more than one orientation"
14:56:18 <PhilDay> bbailey: This isn't quite where we ended up. Should have at least as bit as the x-height used by Arial font at 16 CSS px
14:56:24 <PhilDay> s/bit/large
14:56:45 <bbailey> should be "at least as large x-height of Ariel"
14:57:13 <bbailey> s/Ariel/Arial/
14:57:25 <PhilDay> GreggVan: x-height varies for different fonts
14:59:44 <PhilDay> GreggVan: also confusing to use x-height - requires looking up for each font. Just refer to 16 CSS px
14:59:49 <bbailey> I don't know where use of x-height came from, but it's a better metric for fluid reading than just font size.
14:59:57 <PhilDay> q+
15:00:15 <maryjom> ack GreggVan
15:00:15 <Zakim> GreggVan, you wanted to add  "this SC applies to non-web software if it is limied to only 'non-web software that is intended to be run on devices that supports software in more
15:00:18 <LauraM> have a hard stop.
15:00:18 <Zakim> ... than one orientation"
15:00:35 <maryjom> s/limied/limited/
15:01:02 <bbailey> From https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG2/#dfn-large-scale :
15:01:11 <bbailey> with at least 18 point or 14 point bold or font size that would yield equivalent size for Chinese, Japanese and Korean (CJK) fonts
15:01:30 <maryjom> q?
15:01:35 <PhilDay> GreggVan: add the precondition gets rid of all the other problems that we discussed.
15:02:09 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
15:03:07 <PhilDay> Discussion about x-height - and where it came from. Useful for understanding readability of text, but not consistent with other standards.
15:03:51 <PhilDay> ... Comment on size of text - x-height is more important for legibility.
15:04:00 <PhilDay> GreggVan: Suggests using CSS pixels is more useful
15:04:24 <PhilDay> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:04:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
15:04:47 <PhilDay> maryjom: Is EN working on it?
15:05:14 <PhilDay> GreggVan: yes - actively being debated. x-height of Arial is twice as big as the height of the capital X in Arial.
15:05:56 <bbailey> I like what I see on screen in PR
15:06:08 <PhilDay> maryjom: We will wait for EN to propose new language, then we can use this new language for the precondition. Then we may be able to use the existing note. Will send it out for approval this week.
15:06:18 <PhilDay> For resize text we will wait for next week.
15:06:35 <PhilDay> Page titled: we will have to pickup another time
15:07:07 <PhilDay> ... it is the last one - we had agreed to incorporate non-web software - EN has - but we need to make sure that there is no application of this to non-web documents
15:07:34 <PhilDay> Right now we just have sets of documents, and don't make any other comment. Think it should not be applied.
15:07:43 <PhilDay> Still need to work on the above
15:07:49 <PhilDay> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:07:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
15:08:26 <PhilDay> maryjom will create PR for page titled on non-web software (which was already at consensus) and then we can discuss non-web documents next week.
15:08:54 <PhilDay> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:08:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html PhilDay
15:09:30 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:09:30 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bbailey, PhilDay, GreggVan, loicmn, LauraM
15:09:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:09:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:09:39 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:09:39 <maryjom> present+
15:09:39 <loicmn> loicmn has left #wcag2ict
15:09:40 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:09:53 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:09:53 <RRSAgent> I see no action items