15:57:23 RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star 15:57:27 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-irc 15:57:27 Zakim has joined #rdf-star 15:57:40 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 15:57:59 lisp has joined #rdf-star 15:58:08 present+ 15:58:54 meeting: RDF & SPARQL WG 15:59:17 previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:59:17 next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/25-rdf-star-minutes.html 15:59:29 olaf has joined #rdf-star 15:59:46 present+ 16:00:20 present+ 16:00:46 present+ 16:00:56 present+ 16:01:21 present+ 16:01:55 scribe+ 16:01:55 present+ 16:02:00 chair: pchampin 16:02:00 scribe: olaf 16:02:01 enrico has joined #rdf-star 16:02:09 present+ 16:02:12 tl has joined #rdf-star 16:02:25 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:02:31 I am travelling, so I will passively listening today. 16:02:45 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e39fe026-428e-4736-8476-cb179725a892/20250918T120000/ 16:02:45 clear agenda 16:02:45 agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-rdf-star-minutes.html 16:02:45 agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 16:02:56 olaf: the two WG chairs are not here today 16:03:07 present+ 16:03:10 i/chair: pchampin/agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e39fe026-428e-4736-8476-cb179725a892/20250918T120000/ 16:03:20 pchampin: Comments about the minutes? 16:03:29 present+ 16:03:40 regrets+ ktk 16:03:42 regrets+ ora 16:03:43 regrets+ AZ 16:04:32 last week's minutes look fine to me 16:04:56 zakim, open item 1 16:04:56 agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:05:16 q? 16:05:17 ... other comments on the minutes? 16:05:22 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:05:28 present+ 16:05:49 PROPOSAL: approve last week minutes at https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-rdf-star-minutes.html 16:05:51 +1 16:05:52 +1 16:05:54 +1 16:05:54 +1 16:05:55 +1 16:05:58 +1 16:05:59 +1 16:06:04 +1 16:06:36 +1 16:06:36 +1 16:06:36 RESOLVED: approve last week minutes at https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-rdf-star-minutes.html 16:06:38 doerthe has joined #rdf-star 16:06:44 present+ 16:06:57 pchampin: no open actions? 16:07:03 topic: open actions https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 16:07:24 ... any comments on the open actions? 16:07:29 q+ 16:07:43 ... I have marked mine as 'proposed to close' 16:07:44 ack niklasl 16:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238 16:07:57 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238 -> Pull Request 238 Further explain abstract data model and abstract syntax (by niklasl) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial] 16:08:12 It looks as of #7 and #8 have been done. 16:08:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/7 -> CLOSED Issue 7 test *again* ghurlbot configuration (by ghurlbot) 16:08:13 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/8 -> CLOSED Action 8 test *again* ghurlbot configuration (on ) due 13 Jan 2023 16:08:22 niklasl: The mentioned PR addresses action 7 16:08:22 i|github|subtopic: action #172 16:08:37 And probably number 9 16:09:11 pchampin: the PR for 38 is still open 16:09:26 ... I guess we want to keep the action open until the PR is merged 16:10:40 ... the PR is approved by all editors 16:11:02 ... to close the action, I propose we merge PR 238 16:11:06 If the action is completed then it should be either closed or amended to state that getting something merged is part of the action. 16:11:29 ... there are still some points open in this PR, and there are some discussions on the commits 16:11:47 ... Maybe the PR is not ripe for merging. 16:12:13 ... There are still comments by Dominik and by TallTed 16:12:39 q? 16:13:02 TallTed: I am having trouble figuring out the order of things in this PR 16:13:31 niklasl: As Dominik is not here, I cannot merge the PR now. 16:13:58 ... The only thing that the PR does is that it links to a definition. 16:14:27 ... The remaining thing for this PR is that Dominik approves the PR. 16:14:36 ... I will ping him in the PR 16:15:19 pchampin: I closed my action (which was marked as proposed for closing) 16:15:26 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/173 16:15:26 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/173|-> Action 173 try to revise `Replacing Blank Nodes with IRIs`, now in appendix b (on doerthe) due 2025-08-14 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/173 16:15:31 ... there was an action for doerthe 16:15:52 doerthe: There was a PR, which is not merged. 16:16:11 pchampin: We should link the PR to the action 16:16:17 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/157 -> Pull Request 157 Fixed skolem text with simple entailment (by franconi) 16:16:21 ... which one is it? 16:16:37 doerthe: the one in RDF Concepts 16:16:50 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/236 16:16:51 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/236 -> Pull Request 236 Issue #143 (Skolemization) (by doerthe) 16:17:07 q? 16:18:05 pchampin: we have approvals on this PR from some of the Concepts editors and from the Semantics editors 16:18:18 TallTed: I have not reviewed this PR yet. 16:18:26 ... it is on my TODO list. 16:18:51 At some time the process should be to merge and anyone with problems can comment afterwards. 16:18:53 AndyS: All your (TallTed) changes have gone in. 16:19:09 TallTed: I believe you, but there have also been other changes that went in. 16:19:41 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/174 16:19:42 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/174|-> Action 174 draft PR replacing `data model` with `abstract syntax` (and vice versa?) to see what happens (on lisp) due 2025-08-14 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/174 16:20:21 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232 16:20:21 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232 -> MERGED Pull Request 232 revise to use "abstract data model" to unify "abstract syntax" and "data model" (by lisp) 16:20:43 pchampin: I believe that this (merged) PR addressed the action. 16:20:44 James has done this action a while ago - there is a draft PR (whether or not it has been merged) 16:20:59 james: That was the intent last week when it was merged. 16:21:13 close #174 16:21:16 Closed -> issue #174 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/174 16:21:19 s/james:/lisp: 16:21:25 andy made the actual merge... 16:21:54 TallTed: Please add a link form the action to the PR 16:22:01 pchampin: okay, done 16:22:25 ... any other action that we can address? 16:22:27 q? 16:22:32 zakim, open item 2 16:22:32 agendum 2 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:23:14 I added a couple of editorial issues/PRs that should be completed before CR 16:23:28 pchampin: Is there any issue here that is ready for discussion? 16:23:55 ... maybe we should start with "that" (?) 16:24:12 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238 16:24:13 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238|-> Pull Request 238 Further explain abstract data model and abstract syntax (by niklasl) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial] https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238 16:24:37 ... PR 238 (Concepts) has approval from the editors 16:24:46 ... ah, that's the one we discussed earlier 16:25:04 Souri has joined #rdf-star 16:25:10 present+ 16:25:22 ... One PR on RDF Concepts by William is open 16:25:34 subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/240 16:25:34 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/240|-> Pull Request 240 Review sec1.5 wv (by william-vw) https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/240 16:25:54 ... it is related to the discussion of reifies 16:26:12 ... The PR is reordering the arguments in Sec.1.5 16:26:16 q+ 16:26:30 ... personally, I am happy with the latest changes in that PR 16:27:06 ... Also, it may deprecate my own PR 16:27:07 I haven't had a look at this (wasn't aware of it) 16:27:21 q+ to note that we still have https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 16:27:21 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing] [ms:CR] 16:27:23 enrico has joined #rdf-star 16:27:28 present+ 16:27:32 ack niklasl 16:28:05 niklasl: I need to look closely at this PR, but I have the same general impression. Yet, I still need to confirm. 16:28:19 q+ to say this is another that I expect to get to reviewing today, perhaps tomorrow 16:28:23 ack pfps 16:28:23 pfps, you wanted to note that we still have https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 16:28:29 ... It is editorial, which means it is not necessarily CR related. 16:28:52 pfps: We still have all these issues that are blocking progress on Semantics 16:28:59 q+ 16:29:10 q+ 16:29:13 ack TallTed 16:29:13 TallTed, you wanted to say this is another that I expect to get to reviewing today, perhaps tomorrow 16:29:33 ack AndyS 16:29:33 ... That will involve a lot of work, and thus is the highest priority. 16:29:43 +1 pfps, I have to focus on these issues 16:29:43 TallTed: I haven't reviewed that one either. 16:29:54 s/highest priority/critical path/ 16:30:08 ack pchampin 16:30:16 AndyS: I don't think there is anything on the substance of Concepts and work on Semantics can continue. 16:30:50 q+ to comment on normative change 16:30:53 pchampin: Yes, we are talking only about informative content. No proposed normative change around this issue. 16:31:03 q+ to ask that we capture the repo/document dependency order, that will capture the order we should review/attack current issues & PRs 16:31:07 q- 16:31:16 ack TallTed 16:31:16 TallTed, you wanted to ask that we capture the repo/document dependency order, that will capture the order we should review/attack current issues & PRs 16:31:35 + 16:31:45 TallTed: Depenendcy order for the repos should be mapped 16:32:14 q+ to state that I consider that there are several items in this dashboard that are blocking finalizing semantics 16:32:18 q+ 16:32:27 pchampin: The dependency is captured by the references from one doc to another. 16:32:36 q+ 16:32:56 TallTed: I would like this to be explicit; do this one first because it affects the other, etc. 16:33:15 pchampin: I will try to get us such a dependency graph. 16:33:34 ACTION pchampin to find a way to extract a dependency graph of our specs 16:33:44 ACTION: pchampin to find a way to extract a dependency graph of our specs 16:33:52 Created -> action #179 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/179 16:33:52 the blocking items that I see are numbers 1, 2, 3, and 4 16:33:52 ack pfps 16:33:52 pfps, you wanted to state that I consider that there are several items in this dashboard that are blocking finalizing semantics 16:34:11 pfps: I see several issues on this list that are blocking Semantics 16:34:40 ack AndyS 16:34:42 ... these issues have comments that can be interpreted to require changes to how Semantics works 16:34:45 q+ 16:34:54 AndyS: which issues do you mean? 16:35:01 pfps: the first four 16:35:23 AndyS: I shuffled them before the telecon 16:36:08 ... the second one on the list has been taken over by William's PR 16:36:15 ack tl 16:36:27 Item 2 is rdf-concepts - 220 16:36:29 pfps: still someone seems to want changes to Semantics 16:36:48 1 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169, 2 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220, 3 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/237, 4 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 16:36:49 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/237 -> Pull Request 237 explain the rdf:reifies is deliberately abstract (by pchampin) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial] 16:36:49 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR] 16:36:49 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 -> Issue 46 Why quoted triples, when we already have named graphs? (by lars-hellstrom) [ms:CR] [wr:pending] 16:36:50 tl: The PR on Semantics can be closed without merging 16:36:50 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing] [ms:CR] 16:37:24 ... and the changes need to by done in Concepts or in Schema 16:37:29 q? 16:37:39 ... I am not requesting any changes to Semantics. 16:37:40 q+ to mention even for triple terms implying the truth of the triple 16:37:42 ack pchampin 16:37:44 q+ 16:37:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:38:02 pchampin: tl's PR on Semantics has indeed been closed 16:38:35 ... tl, do you share my impression that the solution will be exclusively in non-normative sections? 16:39:26 ... That would make it easier to have the work on Semantics continue. 16:39:36 tl: I am not aware which section is normative. 16:39:50 ... There should be a change to Sec.1.5 in Concepts 16:40:01 ... There should be a change to Schema 16:40:02 q+ 16:40:11 ... There is no need to change Semantics 16:40:33 ack pfps 16:40:33 pfps, you wanted to mention even for triple terms implying the truth of the triple 16:40:34 ... I don't know why it is important whether this is about normative or not. 16:40:57 s|1 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169, 2 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220, 3 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/237, 4 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46|| 16:41:01 1 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 16:41:01 2 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 16:41:01 3 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/237 16:41:01 4 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 16:41:02 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR] 16:41:02 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing] [ms:CR] 16:41:02 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/237 -> Pull Request 237 explain the rdf:reifies is deliberately abstract (by pchampin) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial] 16:41:03 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 -> Issue 46 Why quoted triples, when we already have named graphs? (by lars-hellstrom) [ms:CR] [wr:pending] 16:41:08 q+ 16:41:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed 16:41:20 ack AndyS 16:41:22 pfps: There was an illusion to a RDF-star. Going back to that will change Semantics. 16:41:49 going back to having the presence of a quoted triple in an RDF graph asserting that triple would be a change to the semantics 16:41:52 q- 16:41:54 AndyS: item 1 in the list has been 'proposed to close' since along time 16:41:56 q+ 16:42:38 ... for the named graphs issue, it shouldn't be on this list. 16:43:01 ... It shouldn't be marked 'cr' 16:43:51 pchampin: Yes, we should be able to close this issue. It is mainly a matter of putting the arguments together and writing a response to the issue. 16:44:34 ack tl 16:44:36 ack niklasl 16:44:48 tl: forgot why I queued 16:45:17 niklasl: Was it about whether you want triple terms to be in entailed (?) 16:45:45 tl: I remember I mentioned RDF-star, but I don't remember in what context. 16:46:14 ... We will have a vote for it, and I will have to think what my vote will be. 16:46:44 ... I made to believe that the machinery in Semantics can be used to define rdf:states 16:47:00 s/I made/I am made 16:47:18 q? 16:47:30 q+ 16:47:33 tl: I don't see why pfps is afraid that Semantics would need to be changed. 16:47:42 ... neither theoretically nor in practice 16:47:57 q- 16:48:00 pchampin: Going back to the issue raised by AndyS 16:48:15 ... Concepts 46 has a long discussion 16:48:21 The extension tl is talking about has been defined more than a year ago in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Extending-the-baseline-with-%22asserted%22-stuff . We decided not to include it in RDF 1.2, but it is a sound extension that tl could consider in the future 16:48:23 q+ [probably] re. the other tangent (named graphs) 16:48:23 s/rdf:states/rdfs:states 16:48:28 q+ 16:48:59 ... Do we collectively think that we have provided enough feedback on this issue, or should it be synthesized? 16:49:06 STRAWPOLL: we will close https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 as "won't fix" 16:49:07 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 -> Issue 46 Why quoted triples, when we already have named graphs? (by lars-hellstrom) [ms:CR] [wr:pending] 16:49:20 adding rdf:states to RDF (entailment) would require re-checking some of the parts of Semantics 16:49:26 +1 but we need to respond 16:49:27 q+ 16:49:45 +0 it depends on the response 16:49:48 ack niklasl 16:49:48 +1 16:50:08 creating a new semantic extension for xx:states would not (so long as the semantic extension is not in Semantics) 16:50:32 niklasl: Closing the issue without further response, is debatable 16:50:48 ... The question will come up again 16:50:51 ack AndyS 16:51:06 +1 for removing ms:CR 16:51:07 AndyS: all we need to do now is to remove the CR tag 16:52:06 pchampin: removing the CR tag means we are not intending to make any normative change in the direction of the issue 16:52:19 STRAWPOLL: we will not make any substantive change relative to https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 , so we can remove ms:CR and address it later 16:52:19 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/46 -> Issue 46 Why quoted triples, when we already have named graphs? (by lars-hellstrom) [ms:CR] [wr:pending] 16:52:27 +1 16:52:29 +1 16:52:30 +1 16:52:32 +1 16:52:35 +1 16:52:36 +1 16:52:37 +1 16:52:43 +0 16:52:48 +1 16:52:49 +1 16:53:10 pchampin: Okay, I will remove the CR tag from the issue 16:53:12 +1 to nicklasl 16:53:28 +1 to niklasl 16:54:03 AndyS: I will put a link to the strawpoll into the issue, after the meeting 16:54:54 pchampin: Any low-hanging fruit in the list that we can resolve in the remaining minutes 16:55:15 q? 16:55:15 ... ? 16:55:19 q+ 16:55:28 ack AndyS 16:55:48 AndyS: There is abatch of CR-tagged issues about being clear about IRIs 16:56:05 ... I didn't have time to address them 16:56:11 s/abatch/a batch 16:56:42 pchampin: time to adjourn 16:56:44 enrico thank you for that hint. maybe I'll have to re-consider if no change sto RDF Semnatics are desired 16:56:53 q? 16:57:17 AndyS: there is a SPARQL TF meeting tomorrow 16:57:22 i/I will remove the CR/ +1 16:57:36 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:57:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 17:03:31 s|subtopic: action #172|subtopic: -> Action 172 take a stab at the paragraph differentiating abstract syntax and data model at this stage https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/172 17:03:35 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:03:37 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 17:05:43 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/7 -> CLOSED Issue 7 test *again* ghurlbot configuration (by ghurlbot)| 17:05:50 s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/8 -> CLOSED Action 8 test *again* ghurlbot configuration (on ) due 13 Jan 2023| 17:05:52 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:05:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 17:09:38 i|We still have all these issues that are blocking|subtopic: Critical path, issues preventing progress on RDF Semantics 17:09:40 RRSAgent, make minutes 17:09:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin 17:10:34 m2gbot, link issues with transcript 17:10:35 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/172#issuecomment-3308618008 17:10:36 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/173#issuecomment-3308618071 17:10:37 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/174#issuecomment-3308618125 17:10:38 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232#issuecomment-3308618186 17:10:39 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/238#issuecomment-3308618259 17:10:40 comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/240#issuecomment-3308618311 17:11:23 RRSAgent, bye 17:11:23 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-actions.rdf : 17:11:23 ACTION: pchampin to find a way to extract a dependency graph of our specs [1] 17:11:23 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-rdf-star-irc#T16-33-44