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12:29:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:29:26 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:29:48 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-09-18: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0020.html
12:29:49 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:29:49 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:29:49 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0020.html
12:29:50 <ivan> regrets+ toshiakikoike, gautierchomel
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12:59:52 <ivan> present+ george
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13:01:09 <ivan> present+ Dan_Kimberg
13:01:20 <ivan> present+ duga
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13:03:08 <gpellegrino> presnet+
13:03:13 <duga> scribe+
13:03:17 <ivan> present+ Dale
13:03:25 <gpellegrino> 1 chocolate egg for Brady
13:03:32 <ivan> s/presnet+/present+/
13:03:48 <ivan> present+ ikkwong
13:03:53 <CharlesL> present+
13:04:00 <duga> ivan: Introduce Dan Kimberg from Google who will be the regular attendee
13:04:12 <wendyreid> Topic: Survey Update
13:04:25 <duga> wendyreid: Survey closed over the weekend
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13:04:59 <duga> ... Good responses, but we are still reaching out to a few entities to see if they have feedback
13:05:03 <ikkwong> present+
13:05:10 <duga> ... then we will summarize over the next few weeks
13:05:30 <duga> ... We have over 100, and we will share a member only link so we can see them
13:05:44 <ivan> s/over 100/almost 100/
13:06:07 <ivan> q+
13:06:13 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:06:20 <duga> duga: Who will summarize?
13:06:26 <duga> wendyreid: Chairs
13:07:18 <duga> ivan: The link we share will be the anonmized version, the originals will be discarded as thet have PII
13:07:35 <wendyreid> Topic: Issue 2526 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2526
13:07:42 <duga> wendyreid: a11y task for has some issues for us
13:07:46 <SueNeu> present+
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13:08:42 <duga> ... in 1.1 we dropped summary to recommendation, so we are getting ISO to make summary 1.0 optional
13:08:47 <ikkwong> present+ kimberg
13:08:54 <duga> ... this change is just doing the same thing for the w3c version
13:09:12 <duga> ... I just want to make sure we have agreement before releasing the errata
13:10:12 <wendyreid> Proposed: Update EPUB Accessibility 1.0 to align with EPUB Accessibility 1.1, close issue 2526.
13:10:22 <George> +1
13:10:23 <mgarrish> +1
13:10:24 <SueNeu> +1
13:10:24 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:10:25 <shiestyle> +1
13:10:25 <gpellegrino> +1
13:10:26 <duga> +1
13:10:29 <AvneeshSingh> +1
13:10:29 <CharlesL> +1
13:10:30 <wendyreid> +1
13:10:32 <Hadrien> +1
13:10:35 <duga> wendyreid: Please vote
13:10:35 <ivan> +1
13:10:37 <Dale> +1
13:11:02 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Update EPUB Accessibility 1.0 to align with EPUB Accessibility 1.1, close issue 2526.
13:11:31 <gpellegrino> q+
13:11:36 <wendyreid> Topic: Change EPUB Accessibility version to 1.2 - PR https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2790
13:11:58 <duga> mgarrish: We weren't sure if we needed to update the version number (have to fiddle with all refs)
13:12:22 <ivan> q+
13:12:31 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:12:39 <duga> ... but then we made some changes, and we need it for this change, so it makes sense to update to 1.2 now
13:13:10 <duga> gpellegrino: I added a comment about EU that is currently referencing 1.1
13:13:21 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:13:25 <duga> ... But I just checked with them and it looks ok, so no red flag
13:13:53 <duga> ivan: We are increasing the version for 2 documents, right? So we have to update short names, etc, for both of them
13:13:58 <duga> wendyreid: 2 documents?
13:14:10 <duga> mgarrish: Yeah, there is also the techniques document
13:15:12 <duga> ivan: Can we forget 1.1.1?
13:15:33 <duga> AvneeshSingh: We can forget 1.1.1. We wanted either 1.2 or 1.1.1, we decided on 1.2
13:15:43 <duga> mgarrish: Do you mean just add this to the change log?
13:16:07 <duga> ivan: No, I mean in the generated history. Should it start with 1.1.1 or 1.2?
13:16:20 <duga> mgarrish: No we need the history since it is part of the change
13:16:52 <duga> ivan: So we need to change from 1.1.1, and I need to tell the webmasters this, so it must be in the resolution
13:17:34 <wendyreid> Proposed: Change the version number of EPUB Accessibility and EPUB Accessibility Techniques 1.1.1 to 1.2, with new shortnames epub-a11y-12 and epub-a11y-tech-12, and the publication history listing 1.1.1 as the previous version. Publish a FPWD for both.
13:17:42 <mgarrish> +1
13:17:44 <CharlesL> +1
13:17:47 <duga> +1
13:17:49 <George> +1
13:17:49 <SueNeu> +1
13:17:51 <ivan> +1
13:17:52 <shiestyle> +1
13:17:53 <MasakazuKitahara> +1
13:17:53 <wendyreid> +1
13:17:53 <gpellegrino> +1
13:17:59 <AvneeshSingh> +1
13:18:11 <Dale> +1
13:18:27 <wendyreid> RESOLVED: Change the version number of EPUB Accessibility and EPUB Accessibility Techniques 1.1.1 to 1.2, with new shortnames epub-a11y-12 and epub-a11y-tech-12, and the publication history listing 1.1.1 as the previous version. Publish a FPWD for both.
13:19:00 <wendyreid> Topic: Discuss bitmaps in spine - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2792
13:19:27 <duga> wendyreid: I don't think we will resolve this today, but we need to start the discussion now
13:19:47 <duga> Hadrien: When we look at comics, the vast majority use bitmaps
13:19:59 <duga> ... by which I mean 1 image per page
13:20:11 <duga> ... very simple xhtml, no alt text
13:20:39 <duga> ... We have seen images in spine with fallback to html, or vice versa (fallbacks to images)
13:20:53 <duga> ... This is largely for performance
13:21:07 <duga> ... custom comics readers are often optimized for images
13:21:33 <duga> ... Those reading systems try to guess what is a comic
13:22:03 <duga> ... While discussing continuous scroll we want those in the xhtml, which makes things more complicated
13:22:23 <duga> ... But that isn't what authors make, they just want bitmaps
13:22:35 <duga> ... the xhtml is just an added step
13:22:52 <wendyreid> q?
13:22:55 <shiestyle> q+
13:22:59 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:23:01 <wendyreid> q+
13:23:06 <duga> ... There are a few ways to handle that, that is thetopic for today
13:23:22 <duga> shiestyle: Japan has a huge comic marketplace
13:23:31 <gpellegrino> q+
13:23:43 <duga> ... Many readers just extract images from the epub, and they never display the xhtml
13:24:03 <duga> ... So even if we added text to those comics, the readers would skip it
13:24:19 <duga> ... So this isn't really for a11y in Japan
13:24:35 <duga> ... so if we focus on Manga and comics, this would simplify things
13:24:35 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:24:36 <duga> q+
13:25:17 <duga> wendyreid: We talked recently about fallbacks, but it seems that fallbacks weren't meant for this
13:25:27 <duga> ... it was to fix missing features
13:26:02 <duga> ... This seems more like an alternative, maybe we should have a better way of specifying alternatives
13:26:05 <Hadrien> q+
13:26:36 <mgarrish> q+
13:26:39 <duga> ... Especially one with a way to indicate what the alternaive is for
13:26:51 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:26:55 <duga> gpellegrino: I agree
13:27:21 <duga> ... I think introducing this feature as it is may create issues on horizontal review
13:27:26 <ivan> q+
13:27:37 <duga> ... I also don't think fallbacks are a solution
13:28:07 <duga> ... we need a method that meets the exit criteria
13:28:31 <duga> ... we all agree that descriptions is not a good soluton for comics, but it is what we have right now
13:28:39 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:28:41 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:29:04 <wendyreid> duga: I don't know if its true that fallbacks were never designed for alternatives, there was a concept of it at the time
13:29:31 <wendyreid> ... but there wasn't clarity, it was a possible use, but we could find a better option than fallbacks for this
13:30:15 <wendyreid> ... I wanted to ask what the explicit solution being propose for this solution, images in spine, with xhtml as a fallback, does the xhtml have the image or just text that says "sorry!"
13:30:21 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:30:26 <duga> Hadrien: The reality is we are not just allowed to put images in spine with no fallbacks
13:30:39 <duga> ... so you need a fallback for compliance, and many do that now
13:30:46 <duga> ... or wrap in svg, etc
13:31:02 <duga> ... I don't think the spec has to say anything about what is in the fallback
13:31:20 <duga> ... I don't think can write strong language about what should be in the fallback
13:31:56 <duga> ... e.g. for continuous scroll, we might want a single document fallback, but we can't do that now
13:32:22 <duga> ... Comics creators and viewers would like to not bother
13:32:53 <duga> ... alternatives vs fallbacks might not want to be in this discussion
13:33:12 <duga> ... there are a lot of edge cases for alternatives, like one to many, atc
13:33:49 <duga> ... I think alternatives should be raised in a new issue if we want to have that discussion
13:33:51 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:34:19 <duga> mgarrish: Fallbacks aren't perfect, like having to repeat the same document multiple times
13:34:39 <duga> ... we almost need parallel spines. Similar to collections
13:35:04 <duga> ... I don't know what the ideal is
13:35:31 <duga> ... The inaccessible content I don't understand - you can always do that
13:35:46 <duga> ... just so long as it is possible then we are good
13:36:00 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:36:22 <Hadrien> q+
13:36:30 <duga> ivan: We have no problem with svg in spine, since there is a method for adding a11y info
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13:36:52 <George> q+
13:36:53 <LaurentLM> present+
13:37:03 <duga> ... but there are bitmap formats that allow adding alternative text the same way SVG does
13:37:08 <duga> ... e.g. SMP
13:37:29 <duga> ... I don't know how good the support is for this, but on paper it works
13:37:32 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:37:33 <ivan> s/SMP/XMP/
13:37:52 <wendyreid> q+
13:37:55 <duga> Hadrien: That is a possibility, or we can add data to the OPF via refines
13:38:18 <duga> ... We might want this for other things like dimensions
13:38:34 <duga> ... SVG isn't something comic authors want to work with
13:38:52 <duga> ... Not a common output format for comics
13:39:19 <duga> ... Accessible comments won't really be solved with alternatives
13:39:38 <duga> ... to really do it we need image fragments with text, audio, taactice, et
13:39:51 <duga> ... We have recently made a proposal about this
13:40:05 <duga> ... but this will take a lot of time and effort
13:40:07 <wendyreid> ack George
13:40:21 <duga> George: I don't think we will just make comics accesible
13:41:08 <duga> ... I wonder if metadata in the OPF would say this is not accessible, or if an accessible version exists a way to point at it
13:41:12 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:41:24 <duga> ... I don't think these will ever be merged (there will be 2 versions of the comic)
13:41:40 <CharlesL> q+
13:41:45 <duga> wendyreid: We can't reduce a11y to alt text, that is just one affordance
13:42:07 <duga> ... Alt text for a comic can be huge, so it can't easily go in the spine
13:42:52 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:43:02 <duga> ... we have a challenge as we are limited in certain ways about how to add things to a package
13:43:32 <duga> CharlesL: I hear you about alt text, but if we just allowed it wouldn't we be 90% of the way there?
13:43:40 <duga> ... [breaking up]
13:44:15 <SueNeu> q+
13:44:25 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:44:27 <duga> ... I think as a stopgap the alt text and image size could be a short term win, and work on other solutions in parallel (over years)
13:44:41 <duga> SueNeu: Q about image size in spine
13:44:55 <duga> ... How does that play into multiple screen sizes or orientations?
13:45:12 <duga> ... is this perscent or em or pixels?
13:45:24 <ivan> s/perscent/percent/
13:45:33 <Dale> q+
13:45:33 <AvneeshSingh> q+
13:45:37 <duga> Hadrien: I don't think this is any impact. Same as having images in the xhtml
13:45:39 <wendyreid> ack Dale
13:46:17 <ivan> +1 to Dale
13:46:20 <duga> Dale: In webdesign there is a lot of effort in separating structure from presentation
13:46:39 <ivan> q+
13:46:42 <duga> ... I view the spine as structure, would adding this to the spine blur that line?
13:46:55 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
13:46:57 <ivan> q-
13:46:57 <duga> ... Should we consider if there is a more elegant way to do that?
13:47:13 <duga> AvneeshSingh: First, as gpellegrino said, we need to pass horizontal review
13:47:26 <duga> ... So there has to be a way to inject accessible data
13:47:53 <ivan> q+
13:47:59 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:48:06 <duga> ... as to structure, we already have other ways of adding things to the package, but in this case the data should be in the manifest, not the spine
13:48:33 <duga> ivan: On the size issue, any lib can extract this from the image itself
13:48:41 <mgarrish> q+
13:48:45 <duga> q+
13:48:46 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:49:06 <duga> mgarrish: We experimented with dimensions in the metadata, but in the end we dumped that
13:49:08 <duga> q-
13:49:24 <wendyreid> q+
13:49:29 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:49:30 <duga> ... Not sure why we want to reopen that door. It didn't work the first time
13:49:50 <Dale> q+
13:50:24 <duga> wendyreid: You can extract from the images, but we used to have issues where if the viewport size was different across images then only the first was taken
13:50:39 <duga> ... but this may have been a performance issue
13:50:55 <Hadrien> q+
13:51:03 <duga> ... And yes, you can extract from the file, but it means you have to have it first
13:51:05 <duga> q+
13:51:18 <AvneeshSingh> +1 size information prevents reading file for this information.
13:51:20 <wendyreid> ack Dale
13:51:26 <duga> ... So there may be some validity to having it in the spine
13:51:51 <duga> Dale: Following on SueNeu, if we grab info out of the image file it is pixel
13:52:25 <duga> ... For instance, my image may be larger for zooming reasons, and then it will be made smaller for display
13:52:54 <duga> ... from a design point of view, given just one size is very limiting
13:53:16 <duga> ... This goes back to telling a story, what can designers/authors do
13:53:28 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:53:29 <duga> ... I don't want to lose the viewport from the creation side
13:53:54 <duga> Hadrien: I just want to point out, we removed dimension from OPF, but it is currently forced in every xhtml page
13:54:03 <duga> ... That is a pain today
13:54:22 <duga> ... Having the data in the manifest helps with streaming
13:54:44 <duga> .., but they problem when it is in the opf is when it is wrong
13:55:10 <duga> ... So most implementations extract the data themselves, including the size info
13:55:24 <duga> ... and then the epub is discarded
13:55:30 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:55:57 <wendyreid> duga: I'm just echoing Hadrien, the issue with putting it in the spine, it might be wrong, reading systems won't know what to do when it is wrong, who should you trust?
13:56:05 <wendyreid> ... trust the spine, the xhtml, the image itself?
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13:56:28 <ivan> q+
13:56:31 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:56:37 <duga> wendyreid: Good discussion, I will open an alternatives discussion
13:56:51 <duga> ivan: To move forward, I would like to see a more detailed proposal
13:56:58 <Hadrien> q+
13:57:19 <duga> ... doesn't have to be a full PR, but I would like to understand the exact changes we are considering
13:57:23 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:57:44 <duga> Hadrien: Would you like me to keep the same PR, or another, or just a summary?
13:58:17 <duga> ... It sounds like people may be more open to images with no fallback, but I don't know what that looks like
13:58:24 <duga> ... for instance xmp, etc
13:59:04 <duga> ivan: Maybe just a rightup with these are the possibilities. Really just a collection of summaries so we can understand what the options are
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13:59:52 <duga> ... I won't be on the next call, but in two weeks I will have that summary. And maybe we can bikeshed on naming more
14:00:11 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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