14:46:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pmwg-a11y
14:46:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-pmwg-a11y-irc
14:47:00 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pmwg-a11y
14:47:10 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, this will be pmwg-a11y
14:47:10 <Zakim> ok, AvneeshSingh
14:47:30 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:47:41 <AvneeshSingh> chair: AvneeshSingh
14:48:19 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Refinement of extended description Use cases document
14:48:39 <AvneeshSingh> agenda+ Any other business.
15:02:17 <gpellegrino> present+
15:03:51 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:04:47 <Hadrien> Hadrien has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:05:30 <George> George has joined #pmwg-a11y
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15:06:02 <CharlesL> CharlesL has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:06:18 <CharlesL> present+
15:06:28 <CharlesL> scribe+
15:06:28 <gpellegrino> scribe+
15:06:34 <Dale> present+
15:06:43 <CharlesL> agenda?
15:06:53 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:06:53 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Refinement of extended description Use cases document -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:06:56 <gautierchomel> present+
15:07:11 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-
15:07:47 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Gregorio created this document and exploring the gaps.
15:08:24 <mgarrish> link is broken for me: https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-Current-Limitations
15:09:14 <AvneeshSingh> https://github.com/w3c/publ-a11y/wiki/Standardizing-Extended-Descriptions:-User-Stories,-Testing-Results,-and-Current-Limitations
15:09:54 <Madeleine> Madeleine has joined #pmwg-a11y
15:10:00 <Madeleine> present+
15:10:10 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: expectations of RS. This document is to expose use cases for extended descriptions to lobby this idea. more about different requirements for whole ecosystem.  tried to explain the experiments made and state of Art what is possible on the Web. (summary/details in HTML) and aria-details attribute. and express limitations.  Ie. for publishing industry summary details is a problem, and aria details on linked to same page and
15:10:10 <CharlesL> no way to identify the containers of extended descriptions
15:10:46 <CharlesL> ... these user stories starts from EPUB ecosystem and beyond to web and different systems, edtech, news portals etc.
15:11:22 <CharlesL> ... 5 user times Screen reader, visual, user agents RS dev., content creators and QA.
15:11:49 <CharlesL> ... need specific roles, identify the image and link to desc. and description itself.
15:12:30 <CharlesL> ... describe how tests was structured, and 2nd doc. with extended descriptions. and listed the limitations with current state of art.
15:13:23 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:13:23 <CharlesL> ...  XPATHs to trav. the DOM to identify if links are to ext. desc. etc. how travers the DOM to find all links to extended descriptions before loading doc. or once it has been loade.
15:13:58 <Dale> q+
15:14:12 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:15:42 <CharlesL> Dale: annotations talk notion: separate doc that has info that has information locator from another doc. reminds me of different usage case and similar problem there is content in the original doc and that we are going to give additional information about and pointing to it.
15:15:46 <gpellegrino> q+
15:16:11 <CharlesL> ... is there something we can look to that group to solve this problem here.
15:16:12 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:17:26 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: Its interesting, ext. description we have an image that ref. the ext desc. image with a link below which points to the extended description and then a back link to the original link.  similar to Foot/End notes
15:18:12 <CharlesL> ... exploring annotations for ext. desc. for future work, once we have broad support for standardizing of annotations.
15:18:30 <George> q+
15:18:32 <mgarrish> q+
15:18:38 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: web already has tech to resolve it. we need semantics for these extended descriptions, we have linking mech.
15:18:39 <AvneeshSingh> ack george
15:19:40 <CharlesL> George: footnotes, endnotes and these extended descriptions are authored part of the original publications, annotations are usually added after the fact and point in, which is the main difference.  Annotations may be useful to adding additional content but not part of the author distributed work.
15:19:46 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:20:50 <CharlesL> mgarrish: State of Art: good to re-inforce the lack of support, aria-details only points to current document, its ineffective it can point to the link but no semantics that the link points to the extended descriptions.  the link is not clear is the main issue.
15:21:22 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: limitations is good, highlight 1 piece to identify the ext desc.
15:21:43 <CharlesL> ... should we give an example footnotes are identified as aria roles or would this be misleading?
15:22:20 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: we could propose a possible solution or just state the issue.  our mind we have an idea. two roles for the link to the ext desc, and the other the ext desc. itself.
15:22:25 <mgarrish> q+
15:22:28 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:22:32 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: we are giving a hint to them.  is this a good way?
15:22:48 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:23:29 <CharlesL> mgarrish: thats helpful to show presidence for these. to show we have already considered this
15:24:08 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: put limitations before then show the explanation of the test itself.
15:24:21 <CharlesL> ... see conclusion first before the test.
15:24:45 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:24:47 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: I agree, I can do that and even remove the explanation of the test
15:25:02 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: should we remove that or keep it where it is or after?
15:25:05 <mgarrish> s/presidence/precedent/
15:25:31 <CharlesL> George: the descriptions are good enough, I don't think we need to see the code.
15:25:35 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:25:56 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: any objections to remove the explanations remove test keep it back pocket, we can provide it if needed.
15:26:24 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:26:36 <CharlesL> ... Gregorio will do another round then Matt will move to PMWG wiki page.
15:26:45 <CharlesL> mgarrish: just let me know when to move it.
15:26:52 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, next agendum
15:26:52 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Any other business. -- taken up [from AvneeshSingh]
15:27:19 <CharlesL> q+
15:27:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:27:43 <gautierchomel> q+
15:28:38 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:28:42 <CharlesL> Charles: proposes to bring FXL A11Y into this group.
15:29:09 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: Fixed layout remaining problem reflowing fixed layout.
15:31:07 <CharlesL> ... solution was to RS to reflow the FXL same way TTS does or SR does, many FXL will remain the way they are currently. Hachette and maybe others the application both in FXL and Reflowable both content linked in same application switch from one to other.  Press most press application have this similar feature you can read in paginated or articale inf a reflowable way.
15:31:29 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:31:59 <CharlesL> ... would like to have it specified.  time has come to discuss so we can specify both content linked and author provides both fixed layout reflowed by the RS.
15:32:11 <gpellegrino> q+
15:33:12 <CharlesL> ... incubation has been long 2+ years. my proposal is to show the PWG what is being done but could be this new joint Task Force. this could happen quickly what they say/do and what is being done.
15:33:21 <gpellegrino> q-
15:33:23 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: that would be nice in a CG meeting.
15:33:40 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:33:49 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: similar to the multiple renditions worth investigating.
15:34:22 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: if we want FXL to be part of this sub task force.
15:34:56 <CharlesL> George: I was thinking having it at this time, move that meeting over to hear it would get Avneesh / George and others who can't make that other meeting time.
15:35:32 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: 2 meetings in a month 1 can be focused on FXL and the other for this groups agenda topics.
15:35:33 <mgarrish> q+
15:35:49 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:36:09 <CharlesL> mgarrish: what is left for 1.2?  we addressed some of the major stuff, unless we have plans to do more right?
15:36:24 <gpellegrino> q+
15:36:47 <CharlesL> ... we could pick up some FXL stuff, or limit ourself to the PCG calls. then we can start rescheduling the PCWG a11y calls.
15:36:51 <Hadrien> q+
15:37:09 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: the work with APA that would be something, but once a month.
15:37:09 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:37:25 <CharlesL> gpellegrino: From FXL may need us to update our document.
15:37:37 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:37:57 <CharlesL> Hadrien: I am interested in a11y comics could continue in CG and when we are ready bring it to this group.
15:38:03 <George> q+
15:38:19 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: Next steps to have FXL combined with this grou
15:38:21 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:38:58 <Hadrien> q+
15:39:17 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:39:25 <CharlesL> George: Gautier mentioned some FXL involved 2 documents / renditions & linked and when thinking of comics with images in the spine. that notion is very appealing and may address the APA Horizontal review.
15:39:54 <CharlesL> Hadrien: to make FXL accessible vs comics accessible is very different.
15:40:50 <CharlesL> ... newspaper layout you can identify blocks and have html presentation. comics are different less about maping and more similar to media overlays playing fragments in a certain order.
15:42:01 <AvneeshSingh> q?
15:42:05 <CharlesL> ... character who is talking in a speech bubble etc. solutions are different. newspaper and magazine solution could work for childrens books, cookbooks. comics more than mapping but also describing etc.
15:42:34 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: next steps those in FXL TF what is the next steps.
15:43:09 <CharlesL> Hadrien: the FXL TF hasn't been doing a lot currently, we are working on authoring best practices.
15:43:24 <Dale> q+
15:43:48 <gautierchomel> q+
15:43:48 <CharlesL> ... what Gautier is saying there is no standard output and it may be a big change of what has happened in that group to this point.
15:44:14 <CharlesL> AvneeshSingh: I think it would be good to see a presentation and see where this would fit either in the CG or WG.
15:44:32 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:45:40 <CharlesL> Dale: notion of a11y its broad subject I create comics and put them into EPUBs there is a story telling element, but from a user experience if a user wants to experience the comic what is the text bubble what is in the background etc. this will get more complicated.
15:47:27 <CharlesL> ... there are two different ways on how comics can be experienced. I wonder from a11y pov is accessibility the content and story accessible or is it breaking it apart to understand both aspects of the story and what characters are saying etc.
15:47:29 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:47:40 <George> q+
15:47:59 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: I think I will discuss with Wendy how we can move fwd, so we can move fwd in our next meeting of the FXL TF call.
15:48:00 <AvneeshSingh> ack next
15:48:51 <CharlesL> George: there may also be sound effects as someone comes onto the scene and the audio representation of comics where Media overlay is similar here.
15:51:04 <CharlesL> gautierchomel: I will reach out to Wendy.
15:51:41 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make minutes
15:51:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-pmwg-a11y-minutes.html AvneeshSingh
15:51:53 <AvneeshSingh> rrsagent, make logs public
15:51:59 <CharlesL> CharlesL has left #pmwg-a11y
15:53:07 <AvneeshSingh> zakim, leave
15:53:07 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, gpellegrino, CharlesL, Dale, gautierchomel, Madeleine
15:53:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pmwg-a11y