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13:10:12 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:10:13 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
13:10:29 <ivan> Chair: laurentlm
13:10:29 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Annotation Task Force Telco
13:36:32 <LaurentLM> LaurentLM has joined #pm-ann
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14:04:32 <ivan> present+
14:04:57 <ivan> present+ ajellinek , dale, hadrien, gautierchomel
14:06:24 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
14:07:42 <Hadrien> scribe +
14:08:07 <ivan> s/scribe +/scribe+/
14:08:12 <LaurentLM> https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/annotations-ucr/
14:09:38 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: Updated annotation use case document with new use cases for audio and threads
14:10:11 <Hadrien> ... nothing about annotating annotations themselves yet, no consensus
14:10:38 <LaurentLM> q?
14:10:38 <Hadrien> ... can we move on now and focus on requirements ?
14:12:36 <Hadrien> ... no comment, so let's focus on requirements
14:13:21 <Hadrien> Topic: Requirements
14:14:02 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: First list of requirements for annotation types
14:14:09 <LaurentLM> q?
14:14:12 <ivan> q+
14:14:35 <Hadrien> ivan: these are not annotation types, they're locators
14:15:03 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: agree, let's rename them to locator types
14:15:24 <Hadrien> q+
14:15:31 <Hadrien> ack ivan
14:15:35 <ivan> ack ivan
14:16:17 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: Annotation formatting covers rich text and tags (keywords)
14:16:29 <LaurentLM> q?
14:16:29 <Hadrien> ivan: They're different
14:16:32 <gautierchomel> q+
14:17:57 <ivan> ack Hadrien
14:18:43 <Hadrien> Hadrien: We're missing progression in a resource as a locator type, this is needed for bookmarks, we can't use text selection for that
14:19:03 <Hadrien> ... bookmarking is an intent, shouldn't be its own section
14:20:01 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: it's a looser way to point into a resource, using a %
14:20:55 <Hadrien> ivan: the term "progression" doesn't feel like the right fit
14:22:18 <Dale> q+
14:22:44 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: Annotation is the overall term, and then we have highlights and bookmarks for annotation types
14:24:11 <Hadrien> Hadrien: what about citations ?
14:24:44 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: they're an export option for highlights, rather than an annotation type
14:25:08 <LaurentLM> q?
14:25:21 <ivan> ack gautierchomel
14:25:22 <Hadrien> ack gautierchomel
14:25:39 <Hadrien> gautierchomel: Bookmarks should not be restricted to reflowable content
14:26:11 <Hadrien> ... for locator types, a bookmark is a "point" whereas the other one can be a "range"
14:26:39 <Hadrien> s/one/ones/
14:27:07 <Hadrien> ... for annotation content we could have a lot more, including multimedia (sound, video, image)
14:28:14 <Hadrien> ... there's a real-life use case for this, it's available in specialized reading systems
14:28:26 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: is there a consensus to allow audio notes?
14:28:35 <Hadrien> ivan: yes
14:28:58 <Hadrien> q+
14:30:17 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: let's add audio notes and image notes
14:30:22 <LaurentLM> q?
14:30:37 <Hadrien> ... let's go back to support for notes on bookmarks, is this a good idea?
14:31:52 <Hadrien> Dale: Are we including bookmarks in annotations? This feels broader than what I would normally consider to be an "annotation"
14:32:10 <Hadrien> ... is an annotation anything that the user is adding?
14:32:24 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: yes it's anything that a user can add and exchange
14:32:53 <Hadrien> ... there's a broader meaning and a more specific one, we're working with the broader one
14:33:33 <Hadrien> ... maybe we need to rename our work, but it could be a bit long if we list everything
14:34:32 <Hadrien> Dale: is a note/annotation anything that people "write" then?
14:34:55 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: yes, and that even includes audio/images/video, not just what a user "writes"
14:35:02 <LaurentLM> q?
14:35:05 <Hadrien> ack Dale
14:36:19 <LaurentLM> q?
14:36:21 <Hadrien> Hadrien: what about the last reading location in a publication?
14:36:34 <Dale> q+
14:36:41 <Hadrien> ... it's not something that you "write" but the user wants this info to be exchanged
14:36:59 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: I'm in favor of supporting this use case as well
14:37:34 <Hadrien> Dale: Where is this going to be? In an EPUB, outside an EPUB?
14:38:05 <Hadrien> ... I'm worried about a conflict if we use terms like "bookmarks" if the feature already exists
14:38:07 <Hadrien> q+
14:38:17 <LaurentLM> q?
14:38:18 <Hadrien> ack Dale
14:39:34 <Hadrien> Hadrien: we're talking about bookmarks in the same way, if I read on device A, I want to bring my bookmarks to device B
14:39:49 <Hadrien> ... conflicts are something we'll need to deal with, this is not specific to bookmarks
14:39:54 <LaurentLM> q?
14:40:33 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: our goal is to allow RS to export what they're already doing
14:40:59 <Hadrien> ... they already have bookmarks, highlights and notes, we're looking at a way to serialize and exchange them
14:41:05 <ivan> q+
14:41:08 <Hadrien> ... we need names for these things
14:41:10 <Hadrien> ack Hadrien
14:41:57 <Hadrien> Dale: it might not be a 1 to 1 equivalent to how things are named between our work and RS, but it should work anyway
14:42:19 <Hadrien> ivan: we have to be careful, because we already have requirements that some RS do not support (yet?)
14:42:21 <Hadrien> q+
14:42:24 <Hadrien> ack ivan
14:42:40 <Hadrien> ... I don't know any RS capable of image notes for example
14:43:22 <Hadrien> ... we have to be careful with our requirements, otherwise they won't be implemented
14:43:48 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: we're trying to have a full view of what's possible and then figure out what's implemented later for a v1
14:43:52 <Hadrien> q?
14:43:53 <LaurentLM> q?
14:43:58 <gautierchomel> q+
14:44:51 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: image notes is commonly used. A pencil to draw on current screen on e tablets and other usecases
14:45:05 <ivan> ack Hadrien
14:45:09 <ivan> ack gautierchomel
14:45:15 <Hadrien> Hadrien: image notes are widely implemented because of stylus support and eTablets like ReMarkable for example
14:45:39 <Hadrien> ... they capture the "view" of what you're reading with handwritten notes on top of it as an image/bitmap
14:46:03 <Hadrien> gautierchomel: I think there is a need to add notes to a bookmark
14:46:20 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: have you seen it on any other RS than Thorium?
14:46:33 <ivan> q+
14:47:07 <Hadrien> ... is this supported in Zotero for example?
14:47:24 <Hadrien> ajellinek: we don't have bookmarks at the moment
14:47:44 <Hadrien> gautierchomel: this is supported in PDF reading systems
14:47:46 <Hadrien> ack ivan
14:47:58 <Hadrien> ivan: this is where the terminology doesn't work for me
14:49:04 <Hadrien> ... body might be different things, annotation types seems to be a combination instead of standing on its own
14:49:32 <Hadrien> ... the real question is what's the locator and content? We might not need annotation types at all
14:50:08 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: but we'll explicitly need to say that something is a bookmark
14:50:40 <ajellinek> q+
14:51:08 <Hadrien> gautierchomel: I prefer Hadrien's take on this, calling them intents instead of annotation types
14:51:22 <Hadrien> q+
14:51:44 <LaurentLM> q?
14:51:48 <Hadrien> ack ajellinek
14:52:46 <Hadrien> ajellinek: I'm wondering how we're defining things, I don't like highlights here because in Zotero's terminology this is how we visually present text selection
14:52:52 <Dale> q+
14:52:54 <Hadrien> ... for example we can have underline as well
14:53:20 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: we can review this another time, next call for example
14:54:17 <Hadrien> ... let's cover export and import
14:54:37 <ivan> q+
14:54:37 <LaurentLM> q?
14:54:38 <Hadrien> ... we need embedded support, exporting as standalone files and importing
14:55:09 <ivan> ack Hadrien
14:55:47 <Hadrien> Hadrien: going back to bookmarks, just wanted to say that they're widely implemented in audiobook players as well
14:56:11 <Hadrien> ... we've implied that this is mostly about "books" and text, but that's incorrect
14:56:37 <Hadrien> Dale: When we talk about bookmarks, are we talking about a label for a given location?
14:57:47 <Hadrien> ... I'm not seeing bookmarks in locator types, don't we need something?
14:58:15 <Hadrien> LaurentLM: a bookmark is more than a locator, it has additional properties: label, color etc.
14:59:14 <Hadrien> ack Dale
14:59:16 <Hadrien> q?
14:59:51 <Hadrien> ... we've added a locator type that works well with them, just need to clarify this better
15:00:08 <Hadrien> ... for now it's called "progression" here
15:00:35 <ivan> -> The Web Annotation Model introduction https://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#introduction
15:01:10 <Hadrien> ivan: it's worth going back to the Web Annotation Model, we've already discussed these separate concerns before
15:01:45 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-pm-ann-minutes.html ivan
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