13:58:57 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:59:01 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-irc 13:59:04 David has joined #i18n 13:59:07 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:59:12 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/3d8e05fe-09ac-4406-91ee-50e6ad47529d/20250918T150000/ 13:59:12 clear agenda 13:59:12 agenda+ Agenda Review 13:59:12 agenda+ Action Items 13:59:14 agenda+ Info Share 13:59:16 agenda+ Review RADAR Review 13:59:18 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 13:59:21 agenda+ Number, currency, and unit formatting article 13:59:23 agenda+ AOB? 14:00:01 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:00:07 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:01:49 present+ Addison 14:02:23 present+ Fuqiao 14:02:25 scribe: xfq 14:02:32 rrsagent, make minutes 14:02:33 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:02:41 atsushi has joined #i18n 14:03:18 present+ JcK 14:03:40 present+ David 14:03:45 present+ Bert 14:03:50 present+ Richard 14:03:55 present+ atsushi 14:03:59 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:03:59 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:04:00 agenda? 14:04:33 agenda+ video about lang attribute 14:04:55 agenda+ ICANN UA meeting on Tuesday 14:05:04 zakim, take up agendum 2 14:05:04 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:05:14 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues 14:05:23 #184 14:05:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/184 -> Action 184 reply to wcag issue with comment about doing a higher level of interaction and pre-review (on aphillips) due 2025-09-04 14:05:46 #135 14:05:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/135 -> Action 135 follow up on XR issue 1393 about locale in session (on aphillips) due 2024-10-17 14:05:50 #127 14:05:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/127 -> Action 127 make a list of shared topics of interest between TG2 and W3C-I18N (on aphillips) due 2024-09-30 14:05:55 #33 14:05:55 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 14:06:03 #7 14:06:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 14:06:12 #4 14:06:13 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips) due 27 Jul 2023 14:06:21 zakim, take up agendum 3 14:06:21 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:06:43 xfq: Unicode 17 14:06:55 ... it was published 14:07:47 r12a: you can enjoy yourself while reading it now 14:07:51 ... it's more beautiful 14:08:00 zakim, take up agendum 4 14:08:00 agendum 4 -- Review RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:08:07 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1 14:08:21 Announcement: https://blog.unicode.org/2025/09/unicode-170-release-announcement.html 14:08:21 Latest core spec online: https://www.unicode.org/versions/latest/core-spec 14:09:11 Bert: I can review css-color-adjust-1 14:11:18 zakim, take up agendum 5 14:11:18 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 14:11:38 #2024 14:11:38 Issue 2024 not found 14:11:38 i18n-activity#2024 14:11:38 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2024 -> Issue 2024 Invalid BCP 47 tags? (by xfq) [pending] [t:lang_values] [wg:timed-text] [s:dapt] 14:12:33 q+ 14:12:45 q+ 14:12:57 ack next 14:13:08 [xfq introduces the pending issue] 14:13:29 q- 14:13:36 addison: what we generally do is recommend that specs only require well-formedness unless they have a good reason to do validation of language tags 14:13:47 ... because validation means having a copy of the registry 14:13:48 https://www.w3.org/TR/2025/CRD-dapt-20250801/#example-24 14:14:18 ... when I looked through that section especially later on they have an example 14:16:07 addison: I'm not sure what they're trying to show non-linguistic content 14:16:15 ... there's a tag for non-linguistic content 14:16:21 ... which they could use 14:16:27 ... having it empty is just as good 14:17:23 r12a: and why do they have a language tag for xml:lang but not for daptm:langSrc? 14:17:32 xfq: when it's empty? 14:17:35 r12a: yeah 14:18:05 addison: at the very bottom of example 24, they talk about if the Arabic text was translated into Japanese 14:18:19 ... the xml:lang for the text would be ja but the source language would still be Arabic 14:19:23 xfq: @@ 14:19:45 addison: they don't talk about 'zxx' as a language tag 14:19:57 ... you can actually have a language tag that says this is non-linguistic 14:20:05 > The value MUST be an empty string or a language identifier as defined by [BCP47]. 14:20:22 ... they should make clear what they're trying to do 14:21:28 xfq: so two comments, one about well-formedness, the other about the text below, to make it clearer 14:21:37 addison: sounds good to me 14:21:51 rrsagent, make minutes 14:21:52 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq 14:22:08 i18n-activity#2025 14:22:09 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2025 -> Issue 2025 DID parameters require ASCII-only (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:char_ranges] [s:did-resolution] 14:24:33 addison: I have several on DID resolution 14:24:43 ... DID is Decentralized Identifier 14:24:53 ... DID defines several parameters 14:25:14 ... several of those parameters require that the value be an ASCII string 14:25:32 ... one of them permits percent encoding, I have a separate comment about that 14:25:48 ... but the others, it's not clear why they are restricted to ASCII 14:26:12 ... in URLs, it's inconvenient to have non-ASCII strings 14:26:25 ... in particular, they have a thing called service 14:26:26 > https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/#a-simple-example 14:26:48 ... seems like you might want to name that thing something other than ASCII, at least some of the time 14:27:12 ... this is a URN-ish syntax 14:27:53 addison: think of it as UUID, but different 14:28:12 ... developers can use this to refer to items or documents or something in an unambiguous way 14:28:32 r12a: ok, but they can refer to a document or context that has a URL that is not ASCII 14:28:55 addison: I think they hide the original URL by assigning names 14:29:07 ... they hide it behind this opaque ASCII string 14:29:28 ... and you might want the string to be highly portable 14:29:41 ... like letters, digits, and dashes 14:30:07 ... but then there's a document which is a JSON document which contains the actual references 14:30:28 r12a: but it also has context properties, which are URLs 14:30:34 ... can they be multilingual? 14:30:38 addison: those are IRIs 14:30:42 r12a: ok 14:30:50 addison: they don't show that 14:31:49 i18n-activity#2025 14:31:51 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2025 -> Issue 2025 DID parameters require ASCII-only (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:char_ranges] [s:did-resolution] 14:32:10 [[[ 14:32:12 service Identifies a service from the DID document by service ID. If present, the associated value MUST be an ASCII string. 14:32:13 ]]] 14:33:11 i18n-activity#2026 14:33:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2026 -> Issue 2026 `relativeRef` should prefer UTF-8 for percent encoding (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:resid_misc] [s:did-resolution] 14:33:32 [[[ 14:33:34 The value of the id property MUST be a URI conforming to [RFC3986]. 14:33:36 ]]] 14:34:10 addison: if you have some octets that are non-ASCII then you need to percent escape them 14:34:21 \/ 14:34:27 ... but they don't say what character encoding is associated with said escaping 14:34:42 s/said/the percent/ 14:35:29 addison: at some point these things need to go into HTTP headers etc. 14:35:42 ... they want to make these as transportable as possible 14:36:00 ... they have parameters whose values themselves can be non-ASCII 14:36:08 ... we've already learned the hard way 14:36:25 ... that if you don't define the encoding, you'll have to do encoding guessing later 14:36:43 ... query parameters on HTTP GET, what's the encoding of that? 14:36:53 ... it's the encoding of the page was sending it 14:37:05 https://www.w3.org/TR/did-1.0/#did-syntax (see no specific comment about 20-7A limitation...) 14:37:30 i18n-activity#2029 14:37:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2029 -> Issue 2029 Use character reference notation and Unicode names for references to specific characters (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:char_ref] [s:did-resolution] 14:38:17 addison: they mention some characters by name in their spec, and we want to recommend our character notation 14:38:22 ... any objection to that? 14:39:54 r12a: these are ASCII characters 14:40:01 ... do we need to put the name in? 14:40:26 addison: it's our policy to say when you name a character, you should do this 14:40:27 i18n-activity#2030 14:40:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2030 -> Issue 2030 Define timestamp format carefully (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [t:loc_time] [s:did-resolution] 14:40:35 r12a: it would certainly be more precise 14:40:43 ... I guess that's what specs are about 14:41:43 r12a: you should put a link to specdev 14:41:43 https://www.w3.org/guide/manual-of-style/#Unicode 14:42:45 addison: their metadata has several values for created or updated timestamps 14:43:02 ... they semi-define it in passing 14:43:32 ... "MUST be a string formatted as an XML Datetime normalized to UTC 00:00:00 and without sub-second decimal precision" 14:43:43 addison: and then they give an example 14:43:52 ... my first comment is you should define the thing 14:43:58 ... clearly 14:44:08 ... and then reference that definition 14:44:20 ... "normalized to UTC" isn't defined anywhere 14:44:29 i18n-activity#2031 14:44:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/2031 -> Issue 2031 RFC9457 again (by aphillips) [pending] [tracker] [s:did-resolution] [t:errors] 14:45:08 addison: DID Resolution on errors 14:45:18 ... includes a reference to RFC 9457 14:45:32 ... a year and a half ago, we talked about this RFC 14:45:57 ... it doesn't provide language negotiation or multilingual error packaging and so on 14:46:33 ... maybe this is just a reminder that this problem is out there in the wild 14:47:05 xfq: when we talked about this RFC, did we talk about it in the DID context, or in another context? 14:47:15 addison: no, we talked about it in another context 14:47:24 xfq: ok 14:47:44 addison: I didn't find that comment, need to search 14:47:58 ... you can see in their text 14:48:09 ... "The title value SHOULD provide a short but specific human-readable string for the error." 14:48:30 ... but there's no mention of how the locale negotiation takes place 14:48:44 Bert: what can the DID group do about it? 14:49:09 addison: they could define something to deal with the gaps that 9457 doesn't supply 14:49:54 agenda? 14:49:54 ... maybe this is something we should think about but not file as an issue against DID 14:50:05 ... I'll go do the research and add it to the agenda next week 14:50:11 zakim, take up agendum 9 14:50:11 agendum 9 -- ICANN UA meeting on Tuesday -- taken up [from r12a] 14:50:36 Are there any specific standards ICANN org should contribute toward for promoting UA adoption across applications and systems? Are there any emerging topics to consider for standards work for UA which ICANN org should consider? Which organizations should it collaborate with for the work? How should ICANN org prioritize its contribution to standards work related to UA? 14:50:50 r12a: next Tuesday, we begin a discussion on standards related to Universal Acceptance 14:50:57 ... see the questions ^ 14:51:34 ... I would be very grateful if you guys could send me things that I should say for each of these questions 14:51:50 ... would be even nicer if some of you are available to have a Zoom call with me to go through it 14:52:07 addison: do you want to put a Zoom call on the calendar somewhere? 14:52:14 r12a: I'd be happy to do that 14:55:23 agenda? 14:55:31 ... in the meantime, if any of you would like to send me an email 14:55:42 zakim, take up agendum 8 14:55:43 agendum 8 -- video about lang attribute -- taken up [from addison] 14:55:45 ... and provide what you think might be useful answers 14:57:41 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3OwTPJo_Kw 14:57:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/issues/774 14:57:46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/issues/774 -> Issue 774 Add video about the lang attribute (by xfq) 14:59:05 q+ to ask if the video can be put on the TPAC videos page (which is meant for groups to talk about their work ahead of TPAC): https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/group-updates.html 14:59:12 ack next 14:59:13 Bert, you wanted to ask if the video can be put on the TPAC videos page (which is meant for groups to talk about their work ahead of TPAC): 14:59:13 ... https://www.w3.org/2025/11/TPAC/group-updates.html 15:01:39 [xfq introduces the video] 15:01:54 xfq: I recently started making some videos. Videos can be another form of "articles". Some people like to learn by watching videos, and some people like to learn through articles. I hope that both types of people can learn from us. 15:02:12 s/learn from us./learn from our educational material./ 15:02:22 addison: I think we can experiment with it 15:02:53 ... if you had 50 of these and they were all embedded in a page, what you just have is a long list of stuff 15:03:11 ... at which point, you've replicated YouTube's playlist concept or something 15:03:19 ... I think this is great 15:05:03 bigbluehat has joined #i18n 15:10:19 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:10:57 In addition, more people find our articles directly through search engines, and not many people browse the article list directly. 15:11:10 rrsagent, make minutes 15:11:11 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq