16:59:16 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:59:20 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-aria-irc 16:59:20 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:59:21 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:59:28 agendabot, find agenda 16:59:28 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:59:29 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20250918T130000/ 16:59:29 clear agenda 16:59:29 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage http://bit.ly/4py2WEb 16:59:29 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-09-11+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues 16:59:32 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 16:59:34 agenda+ -> TPAC planning https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate 16:59:37 agenda+ -> Editorial: [html-aam] Add platform a11y API mappings https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2628 16:59:40 agenda+ -> aria-keyshortcuts: Do multiple shortcuts define a set of alternatives, or a single sequence? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2578 17:00:42 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:00:49 pkra has joined #aria 17:01:03 present+ 17:01:15 present+ 17:01:17 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 17:01:49 Stefan has joined #aria 17:02:02 present+ 17:02:23 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 17:02:39 present+ 17:02:40 present+ 17:02:42 front-endian-jane has joined #aria 17:02:47 katez has joined #aria 17:02:47 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:02:52 present+ 17:03:04 present+ 17:03:19 scribe: Rahim 17:03:19 present+ 17:03:23 Jacques has joined #aria 17:03:35 sarah has joined #aria 17:03:43 Brett has joined #aria 17:03:44 zakim, next item 17:03:44 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage http://bit.ly/4py2WEb -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:03:44 present+ 17:03:52 present+ 17:04:40 present+ 17:05:44 q+ 17:05:45 jamesn: For ARIA #2634, no examples that demonstrate the issue therefore, not an ARIA issue (but may be accessibility or html-aam). Should this be agenda +'d 17:06:00 spectranaut_: it may be a simple misunderstanding, unless someone wants to volunteer (to take a look) 17:06:18 Stefan: sounds like a question around "what can be contained in what", and is it a violation of something 17:06:42 front-endian-jane: I can take a look 17:06:43 q- 17:07:28 s/+'d/+/ 17:07:56 sarah: I'm working on a draft PR for ARIA issue #2631. Could use an Agenda+ due to open questions 17:08:50 jamesn: for core-aam issue #252, this looks like a misunderstanding. Perhaps James Craig can clarify (can we close this)? 17:09:06 jcraig: yes, go ahead and close it 17:09:50 zakim, next item 17:09:50 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-09-11+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:10:21 Siri has joined #aria 17:10:33 present+ 17:10:34 CurtBellew has joined #aria 17:10:35 jamesn: don't need to look at ARIA issue #2633 because it's pdf-aam in draft status 17:10:38 present+ 17:10:58 spectranaut_: I can take a look at ARIA issue #2632 17:11:03 zakim, next item 17:11:03 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:12:18 q+ to ask for review on https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44822 17:12:45 jcraig: nothing new to discuss, closed out a few. Val/Rahim/Giacomo, any to discuss? ARIA PR #2237 awaiting response 17:13:37 giacomo-petri: I tried to find a compromise, I liked James Craig's proposal which is clear. They are basically doing the same thing, so happy to go either way 17:13:53 jamesn: my proposal was a suggestion, not blocked on it. If you prefer to go back to a different way to phrasing, I'm OK with that 17:14:13 front-endian-jane: I haven't seen this comment yet; if the other one works, I can close mine (and hopefully close the comment if it addresses everything) 17:14:24 jcraig: as long it doesn't change the WPT, the test can be merged 17:14:33 q+ 17:14:39 ack Adam_Page 17:14:39 Adam_Page, you wanted to ask for review on https://github.com/web-platform-tests/wpt/pull/44822 17:15:21 Adam_Page: I've got an older WPT PR that is ready for review (a `aria-owns` vs `aria-hidden` test), WPT #44822 17:15:28 ack Rahim 17:15:56 Rahim: I want give a heads up there are two wpt that recently got merger, role case sensitivity, ILD tentative tests were merged! 17:16:09 zakim, next item 17:16:09 agendum 4 -- -> TPAC planning https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:16:10 s/merger/merged/ 17:16:26 s/ILD/IDL/ 17:17:03 jamesn: do we have a meeting with AG scheduled? 17:17:43 q+ 17:17:49 Matt: I had a conversation with Daniel yesterday, wants to make it broader than ARIA AT discussion and being more broadly focused on all the different kinds of testing concerns. Lots of ideas in this space, and he (Daniel) is reaching out to different people and he'll be in touch with you (James N.) 17:18:14 jcraig: if Daniel wants it broader it could be accessibility Interop rather than AT interop 17:19:05 giacomo-petri: there might be interest in the ACT group committee to participate, quite relevant for us (ARIA WG). Daniel is aware of this interest 17:19:07 q- 17:20:03 pkra: ARIA issue #2623, I agree that they're the same (label from name and contents) 17:21:13 jamesn: this is a reminder that F2F candidate issues will be on the agenda. We should delete ones we don't think we'll talk about, can do that offline (during planning). Please add your topics using "F2FCandidate" label 17:21:31 ...will go through and create an agenda with these 17:22:04 zakim, next item 17:22:04 agendum 5 -- -> Editorial: [html-aam] Add platform a11y API mappings https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2628 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:23:39 Rahim: should `title` be discouraged with `` element, and this should be documented outside of html-aam, right? 17:23:51 q+ write a note in mdn...? 17:23:57 jamesn: I think `` experience needs to be fixed, not an ARIA issue 17:23:58 q+ to write a note in mdn...? 17:24:26 jcraig: Ideally test how it should be mapped, can't do it through WebDriver test but can do it through browser layout tests. That's an upstream task than the AT side of it 17:25:12 jamesn: about providing equitable access for all users; not talking about AT users, but what about keyboard users (don't get that information with current implementation). If you use `title` for conveying anything useful, that's a WCAG violation 17:25:31 ...would discourage everyone from using it 17:25:39 ack spectranaut_ 17:25:39 spectranaut_, you wanted to write a note in mdn...? 17:25:45 spectranaut_: good place to document this is MDN (in a note) 17:26:19 Rahim: I can write a note for this. Should the ARIA WG review the note beforehand? 17:26:34 jamesn: Other approvers for MDN, out of our control. If you want to ask people for review, you're welcome to do so 17:27:01 ..I agree that having better mappings would be great for more consistent AT behavior 17:28:09 Rahim: how should this be actually mapped (e.g., how does it work when something is announced on demand, and where does html-aam fit into that)? 17:28:46 q+ to discuss even "on-demand" is prescriptive 17:28:51 Matt: these are AT requirements, not user agent requirements. I don't think they belong in html-aam at all. If we had an AT requirements, they should go in the ARIA spec, and we've been very careful about putting them in (shouldn't put anything that is AT-related in an AAM) 17:29:11 jamesn: I agree, and I don't think it should go in ARIA itself as well (is there any ARIA impact for this)? 17:29:37 ...the role mapping for this doesn't have an ARIA role; I don't know how we would add something in the ARIA spec that would cover a native HTML feature that doesn't have an ARIA mapping 17:29:46 Matt: so, we're saying there's no implicit ARIA semantics at all 17:29:50 jamesn: I think not 17:29:52 q+ to suggest HTML-AAM ~"should make the expansion available to the APIs" 17:29:58 ack me 17:29:58 jcraig, you wanted to discuss even "on-demand" is prescriptive and to suggest HTML-AAM ~"should make the expansion available to the APIs" 17:30:59 jcraig: the language I objected to was similar, but even "on demand" is prescriptive because depending on context, you may want to speak it as part of the name in some circumstances, or may want to wait for the name. To me, "on demand" means user can trigger a keypress/action to hear it when they want 17:31:41 ...agree it shouldn't be documented in ARIA spec, but in html-aam spec, could make a user agent requirement that expansion should be available to accessibility platform APIs. Table we put in there is normative anyway, don't know if we need an extra RFC statement 17:32:26 ...if this is a secondary requirement to the normative mapping, I agree with Matt; we've kept AT requirements out of specs because this is an area for user interface differentiation 17:32:56 ...even focusing on default settings, worried that we'd be getting too prescriptive and preventing innovation 17:33:05 q+ 17:33:22 ack giacomo-petri 17:33:56 giacomo-petri: I agree with James, as I mentioned last time, the `abbr` attribute presents challenges for screen reader users but for other users with disabilities, should be up to them 17:34:26 s/attribute/element/ 17:35:13 jcraig: should be practices, non-normative documents (e.g., XR accessibility guidelines which are written as non-normative) which allows for not following particular guidance in case it doesn't make sense for some innovation change 17:35:19 ack g 17:36:13 Matt: the html-aam, if providing a specific mapping and that mapping is somehow problematic, then I would expect that to show up when we do screen reader interoperability during testing (if it doesn't show up in any other way). This could result in some feedback if it doesn't change mapping, or aligning screen readers for how to process that mapping 17:36:45 ...if the html-aam just sticks to saying "in this condition, map X to Y", this can be tested and evaluated and people can make determinations on whether that normative mapping is effective, ineffective, needs to be changed or fine the way it is 17:37:03 s/should be practices,/could be practices as informative,/ 17:37:29 jamesn: how should we progress? 17:37:57 Matt: I'm saying do we need a note and additional clarity on mapping? 17:38:06 Rahim: my main question is how this should be documented in terms of mapping 17:39:41 jcraig: I think the only action here is, already have a draft PR. You (Rahim) and I can work on what the appropriate AXAPI mapping is. Also, need the platform maintainers for other platforms to tell us what those are (mappings). There are potential downsides to adding AT requirements, let's focus on mapping API; as implementation for each of those engine bugs go in, in the short term, can add them was layout tests (or whatever other engines use 17:39:41 for engine-specific tests that aren't testable with WPT) 17:40:20 pkra has joined #aria 17:40:25 Matt: one of the reasons I want to do the TPAC workshop; let's put these test cases in ARIA-AT and make them run. In this manner, when developing new ARIA features, can determine what AT is doing/not doing, and discuss what changes are needed to mapping, AT (or both) 17:41:11 Rahim: next steps are to add a note, and also document those mappings 17:41:31 zakim, next item 17:41:31 agendum 6 -- -> aria-keyshortcuts: Do multiple shortcuts define a set of alternatives, or a single sequence? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2578 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:42:56 jamesn: concern when multiple key shortcuts are space-delimited, do those separately or as a sequence. My understanding is that they are alternatives, but good to clarify notation for consecutive key shortcuts that could apply for something 17:43:02 q+ 17:43:18 q+ 17:43:26 Matt: having a notation that says "this is a shortcut that consists of something happening in succession", would be helpful 17:43:37 ack me 17:43:45 ack jc 17:45:29 jcraig: Aaron L. was the champion of this attribute (`aria-keyshortcuts`), should have one of the Google reps be involved. Also, for VoiceOver, has shortcuts that are essentially "overloaded" keys. This is one of the attributes that I had reservations about, but Aaron convinced me. Main reservation was that you can't do platform-side localization of these, juts have to do web-app localization side 17:46:21 ...Aaron's argument was that Gmail, in France, will pick a shortcut work for a French language for a French keyboard; the language will be localized to French in France so not a concern for the AT/platform side of things because web author has already done that 17:46:39 q+ 17:47:02 ...whatever we pick here, we include appropriate notes emphasizing how difficult this can be more web authors 17:47:12 s/more/for/ 17:47:34 ack me 17:48:23 front-endian-jane: I can confirm reading this, spec does a good job of outlining challenges. If there additional edits, should specify those 17:48:52 jcraig: there's also a space-separated aspect to this, may not be clear as to comma vs. space separated definition 17:49:12 ...in ARIA spec, see "examples include simple characters..." and this might be the overloading, but unsure 17:49:15 q+ 17:49:22 jamesn: needs specifying, I agree 17:50:32 front-endian-jane: it's currently undefined. My concern is that if we take the current separator and define that as separate shortcuts and not consecutive ones, for apps in the wild they may have interpreted in a specific (non-spec compliant way). From a real-world perspective, the types of apps that have consecutive app key shortcuts, tend to be advanced 17:50:40 ...may change the meaning for people if we don't call it undefined 17:50:51 jcraig: if we have examples that don't use space separator, could leave that as undefined 17:51:02 front-endian-jane: is there concern that it adds complexity for ATs (now 3 different states)? 17:51:05 jcraig: absolutel 17:51:12 s/absolutel/absolutely/ 17:51:26 jamesn: would like to see what ATs do, and problem worth solving. How well is this implemented by ATs 17:51:32 Matt: not sure I've ever seen an implementation 17:52:22 simply speaking the keyboard shortcut string was my recollection as well, at least on windows. 17:52:24 jcraig: I recall Aaron may have worked something through on the Windows side, but I believe it was about speaking what is (or concatenating at the end of something, a string) and the only difference on why it needs to be a separate feature part of the label is due to verbosity expectations ("alt," announcement) 17:52:25 this feature request from Aaron based on a non-standard JAWS feature might also be relevant in this context https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2351 17:52:53 q- 17:52:58 q- 17:53:10 Matt: one consideration is what characters get spoken as part of verbosity; also, in screen readers like JAWS, different voices for different types of content. Another consideration is turning of speaking keyboard shortcuts on or off (can't have that feature to turn it off if you don't know) 17:53:27 ...three reasons why an AT user would want to know it's a keyboard shortcut and not part of the label 17:53:32 ...not aware of any implementations 17:54:09 jamesn: is this something we need to solve? If it's already ambiguous, users may get confused as what they can do 17:54:50 q+ 17:55:38 front-endian-jane: as an implementor, I would be OK to call this undefined and read out (here are keyboard shortcuts that exist), it's on the app implementors to do it. In the same way, it is displayed visually as a space-separated list of keys 17:57:14 Matt: keyboard shortcuts wasn't designed to be help text but rather tightly restricted content; there isn't an opportunity to make it clear with the property itself. This may be a problem for all users and ambiguous but up to user to experiment to learn how it works (may not be the same for every app) 17:57:34 front-endian-jane: I can work on putting together a PR 17:57:44 ack pkra 17:58:11 q+ for editorial PR coming in now 17:58:15 pkra: wanted to mention ARIA #2351, a feature request from Aaron L. to standardize page-wide shortcuts which was non-standard from JAWS. Keith mentioned a related OpenUI proposal 17:58:29 keithamus: on my to-do list 17:58:44 agenda? 17:59:55 jcraig: a quick note which will be editorial, regarding the example from key shortcuts discussion and numbers being on the Shift plane. I will file a PR that changes it to Shift 18:00:07 s/key shortcuts/aria-keyshortcuts/ 18:00:30 s/that changes it/that changes ARIA spec/ 18:05:00 s/I think the only action here is, already have a draft PR. You (Rahim) and I can work on what the appropriate AXAPI mapping is. Also, need the platform maintainers for other platforms to tell us what those are (mappings). There are potential downsides to adding AT requirements, let's focus on mapping API; as implementation for each of those engine bugs go in, in the short term, can add them was layout tests (or whatever other engines use /I 18:05:00 think the only action here is, already have a draft PR. You (Rahim) and I can work on what the appropriate AXAPI mapping is. Also, need the platform maintainers for other platforms to tell us what those are (mappings). There are potential downsides to adding AT requirements, let's focus on mapping API; as implementation for each of those engine bugs go in, in the short term, can add them was layout tests (or whatever other engines use for 18:05:01 engine-specific tests that aren't testable with WPT)/ 18:05:07 That editorial PR for shortcuts i18n I just mentioned is now available. https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2635 Easy review. 18:05:15 s/for engine-specific tests that aren't testable with WPT)// 18:06:43 rrsagent, make minutes 18:06:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-aria-minutes.html Rahim 18:09:19 s/(or whatever other engines use/(or whatever other engines use for engine-specific tests that aren't testable with WPT)/ 18:09:27 rrsagent, make minutes 18:09:29 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/18-aria-minutes.html Rahim 18:52:04 Francis_Storr has joined #aria 19:02:23 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 22:31:04 ChrisCuellar has joined #aria 23:46:08 jongund has joined #aria