18:03:28 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:03:32 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/16-aria-apg-irc 18:03:32 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:03:33 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:03:37 present+ jugglinmike 18:03:39 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:03:41 present+ Jem 18:03:45 present+ Daniel 18:03:47 present+ Adam_Page 18:03:51 present+ howard-e 18:03:54 present+ CurtBellew 18:04:05 topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:04:07 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-16%2C-2025-Agenda#js-repo-pjax-container 18:04:15 Jem: No meeting September 23 18:04:22 Jem: Next meeting: September 30 18:04:32 Present+ Daniel 18:04:32 Jem: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:05:08 Jem: Hearing none, we'll use the agenda as scheduled 18:05:12 present+ Matt_King 18:05:16 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:05:19 present+ jongund 18:05:28 Topic: Publication planning 18:06:30 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:06:36 present+ 18:06:42 Matt_King: Besides the items on today's agenda, everything else in the milestone that we were expecting to get landed is done! 18:06:55 present+ Siri 18:06:58 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/40 18:07:24 Jem: For the October publication plan, I only see "skipTo" from jongund, but I assume there will be more 18:07:32 Matt_King: We also have the "color settings" 18:07:48 q+ 18:07:48 Topic: PR 3328: Add Quantity Spin Button 18:07:56 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3328 18:08:03 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:08:15 Matt_King: jongund wrote a comment about limiting the input 18:08:25 Matt_King: That's interesting because it had previously been limited 18:08:44 jongund: I'm satisfied with the current solution--if you've discussed it, then that's fine with me 18:08:55 present+ 18:09:15 Matt_King: I added several suggestions for editorial changes, and I think they're very straightforward 18:09:26 Adam_Page: Yes, I reviewed them all and accepted them all 18:09:29 Matt_King: Excellent 18:09:31 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:09:51 Matt_King: One little thing I noticed: if you back-tab into it, then the plus sign gets focused 18:11:02 Adam_Page: I couldn't reproduce that, but I'm on macOS without a screen reader running. I'm going to spend more time with it after this call 18:11:17 Matt_King: It's a minor thing, though; I think we can merge without addressing it 18:12:05 Matt_King: Because we have aria-valuemin and aria-valuemax specified, and the aria-describedby is giving the same information, they create redundant speech for screen readers that automatically announce descriptions 18:12:13 Matt_King: So my suggestion is to remove the relationship 18:12:30 Matt_King: I shared some examples of the speech that is generated as a result of having description, min, and max all specified 18:12:46 Adam_Page: I asked a coworker of mine to kick the tires on this thing several days ago, and he gave me the same feedback 18:13:08 Adam_Page: The one potential downside I see is that not all screen readers announce min and max (in particular, macOS VoiceOver does not) 18:13:18 Adam_Page: For those cases, aria-describedby is the best way to deliver that information 18:13:40 Matt_King: We test this in ARIA-AT, but I thought that VoiceOver was not announcing descriptions automatically... 18:13:57 Adam_Page: They are, now--the last time I checked, aria-describedby is getting immediately announced 18:14:29 Matt_King: I know Vispero has done a lot of work to get proper support of min and max on sliders, and that they would want all controls to have equivalent support 18:14:37 Matt_King: I guess we should just press this issue with Apple 18:15:02 Matt_King: If Apple wanted to push back on Vispero's position for some reason, then maybe we would want the APG to espouse the use of descriptions 18:15:23 Adam_Page: I'm good with it. It feels quite comparable to aria-errormessage 18:16:12 Matt_King: Okay. Do we want to give audiences guidance that is more durable? Or do we want to degrade the experience for some screen reader users in order to avoid the potential bug in some screen readers? 18:16:37 Siri: Even for description, when I check, it says that we have to enable a setting--otherwise, it may be skipped 18:17:02 Matt_King: Well, ARIA-AT definitely tests with defaults. So if that behavior isn't enabled by default, then it would be reported as a bug in that project 18:17:51 Matt_King: This conversation is really similar to the "abbr" conversation. However, in this particular case, because interoperability is ongoing (and the conversations with screen reader vendors are active), I feel giving more feedback on the current behavior 18:18:48 Adam_Page: As an APG reference, it does feel a bit provocative to have an input with visible help text that is plainly help text and to have them not related with aria-describedby. 18:19:01 Adam_Page: I would like to explicitly explain that choice 18:19:21 Matt_King: Yeah, you can do that within the existing bullet point that your patch is including 18:19:37 Adam_Page: I can complete this by tomorrow morning 18:20:09 Matt_King: We'll put in a "publication" pull request tomorrow, but if it doesn't happen until Thursday, then that doesn't matter 18:20:22 Daniel: Sure, a few days is not a problem 18:20:36 Matt_King: I'm okay even if we submit the pull request on Thursday 18:20:43 howard-e: Tomorrow or Thursday will both work for me 18:21:09 Matt_King: Okay, so Adam_Page will make the changes, then I will review it, then once everything is good, I will merge and let howard-e know that everything is ready for publication 18:21:57 Daniel: It's reading the 1 to 8 hint. I'm in macOS Tahoe. Since you're mapping, this behavior doesn't surprise me. 18:22:27 Matt_King: Daniel, you clearly have that setting for speaking descriptions enabled. Do you know if you proactively turned it on? 18:22:41 Daniel: I did. I don't think it's the default 18:23:09 Matt_King: Okay! This is going to be a really good discussion to have with Apple. Hopefully we'll be aligned! 18:23:19 Topic: Spell checking CSS and fix for 'invalid' 18:24:08 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3361 18:24:31 Matt_King: So two things got raised in this issue 18:24:52 Matt_King: The first is that is seems we have a fix by modifying the regular expression (which is the fix you made) 18:25:07 howard-e: The pull request is no longer marked "draft"; it is ready for review, now 18:25:21 howard-e: I have some additional questions that I left there, but we don't need to answer them before merging 18:26:13 Adam_Page: I can review this 18:26:23 Jem: I've assigned Adam_Page as a reviewer 18:26:30 Matt_King: As for CSS spell-checking 18:26:47 Matt_King: The momentum last week was, "why are we checking the CSS spelling? Maybe we don't need to." 18:27:09 Matt_King: howard-e has reported that there are a fair number of comments in the CSS, along with class names where spell checking could be of value 18:27:32 howard-e: Last week, I was on the side of wanted to remove spell checking for the CSS because I knew we have style linting, and there's a lot of overlap with that process 18:27:55 howard-e: But after reviewing the code base this week, I started to appreciate the value of having just a check 18:28:25 howard-e: So I think it's safe to keep the spell checking on CSS files 18:28:46 Matt_King: I had personally forgotten all about CSS content. I don't know if we're using that, but it sounds like a strong motivator 18:28:58 Adam_Page: Everything howard-e just shared is convincing to me 18:30:08 Matt_King: I would imagine that if there were any W3C custom configuration for cspell, then Nick (who commented here) would know 18:30:42 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/4605 18:31:08 Jem: Nick has saved us multiple times 18:31:20 howard-e: I would love to meet Nick! I always appreciate when he passes through 18:32:32 Matt_King has joined #aria-apg 18:32:38 present+ 18:33:08 Topic: PR 3362: Carousel Pattern: Fix inconsistency in use of digits and number words by mehrazmorshed 18:33:17 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3362 18:33:27 Matt_King: This was an issue raised by someone outside of the Task Force 18:33:45 Matt_King: It's a simple pull request. I was about to approve it, but I wanted to ask this group a question 18:34:14 Matt_King: In the text that's being changed, we have some places where the word "two" (t-w-o) was used, and other place where the number "2" was used 18:35:27 Matt_King: This person made the change so that in all cases in this text, we're using the digits instead of the spelled-out words. My gut would have been to go in the other direction (that is: to change the digits to words), but since in this particular case, we're talking about using the numbers as identifiers, then it seems consistent with style guidelines 18:35:35 Jem: I support that 18:36:21 Matt_King: There's also a W3C editorial practice, which at one time was aligned with the Chicago Manual of Style. Typically, we say that most of the time, yo u spell out number. But again, because we're using the numbers as identifiers (rather than as numbers), this case seems different 18:36:46 Daniel: When I was an editor, I knew more than I do, now. It seems reasonable, but I'll take a look 18:37:01 Matt_King: Do you mind being designated as a formal reviewer? 18:37:15 Daniel: Sure. This is not slated for the September milestone, right? 18:37:28 Matt_King: That's correct; it is not. You can take your time 18:37:40 Matt_King: Keep in mind that it's just a one-liner, though 18:40:55 [general discussion about a regression in the accessible user experience of the "patch review" user-interface of GitHub.com] 18:41:04 Jem: I've assigned Daniel as a reviewer 18:41:15 Topic: Issue 3363: Clarification of accordion documentation 18:41:21 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3363 18:42:20 Matt_King: In this one, the reporter is just asking what we mean in the documentation. When we say "enter" and "space", we don't put an "and" or an "or", we just have a row in a table. We do use those conjunctions in some prose, but I don't know how consistent we are 18:42:41 Matt_King: They're using a library where only "enter" is supporting. They are asking if we always mean "and" or "or" 18:42:48 Matt_King: My understanding is that we always mean "both" 18:43:08 Adam_Page: Agreed. I've always interpreted this from the user's perspective--that the user may press either one 18:43:23 Matt_King: That's how I've always tested, personally, and it's also how we test in ARIA-AT 18:43:54 Matt_King: Maybe we could encourage them to submit a pull request to add support for the space bar in Ant Design 18:44:44 Matt_King: I suppose that we should remind people that APG is not normative--it's not a requirement; it's just what we recognize as a good practice 18:46:13 Zakim, end the meeting 18:46:13 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Jem, Daniel, Adam_Page, howard-e, CurtBellew, Matt_King, jongund, Siri 18:46:16 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 18:46:17 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/16-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 18:46:24 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 18:46:24 Zakim has left #aria-apg 18:50:10 Zakim, leave 18:50:15 RRSAgent, leave 18:50:15 I see no action items