15:53:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
15:53:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/12-css-irc
15:53:24 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:53:25 <Zakim> Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
15:53:59 <astearns> zoom details: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2025JulSep/0229.html
15:59:41 <SebastianZ> SebastianZ has joined #css
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16:00:15 <SebastianZ> present+
16:03:49 <astearns> please don’t use the zoom link in the calendar invite, use https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2025JulSep/0229.html
16:04:03 <ChrisL> present+
16:06:23 <dbaron> Present+
16:07:04 <florian> scribenick: florian
16:07:14 <ChrisL> rrsagent, here
16:07:14 <RRSAgent> See https://www.w3.org/2025/09/12-css-irc#T16-07-14
16:08:19 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12715
16:08:19 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025] Publish Snapshot as Group Note
16:08:19 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12715.
16:08:40 <florian> astearns: proposed resolution is to publish a new snapshot as soon as the edits are in
16:08:57 <florian> RESOLVED: republish snapshot with the edits decided on today
16:09:02 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12699
16:09:02 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-contain-2] Add CSS Containment 2 to Rough Interop
16:09:02 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12699.
16:09:38 <florian> SebastianZ: we're still in working draft, but there's relatively good interop, with 88% coverage
16:09:44 <florian> SebastianZ: not in any snapshot
16:09:46 <florian> q+
16:09:53 <florian> SebastianZ: still has lots of open issues
16:10:08 <astearns> florian: I agree. rough interop is the right bucket
16:11:06 <astearns> florian: draft needs work and republishing
16:11:35 <florian> RESOLVED: css-contain-2 goes into rough interop
16:11:46 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12698
16:11:46 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][geometry-1] Add Geometry 1 to Rough Interop
16:11:46 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12698.
16:12:05 <florian> SebastianZ: geometry-1 has very good interop, with 98%
16:12:26 <florian> SebastianZ: not in any snapshot, and has a bunch of open issues, and needs republishing. Last TR is from 2018
16:12:44 <ChrisL> q+ to wonder about publishing
16:12:49 <florian> SebastianZ: The question is whether to add to rough interop, or if we should do another publication first
16:12:54 <astearns> ack florian
16:12:57 <astearns> ack ChrisL
16:12:57 <Zakim> ChrisL, you wanted to wonder about publishing
16:13:02 <florian> ChrisL: not clear to me whether we have active editors
16:14:05 <florian> ChrisL: I can put the changes list up to date, but not much more
16:14:23 <florian> astearns: would like a publication before we put this in the snapshot
16:14:37 <florian> astearns: we have a lot of tests, but whether they provide good coverage is unknown
16:14:49 <florian> ChrisL: sounds like we should defer
16:15:24 <emeyer> present+
16:15:57 <florian> SebastianZ: I too could volunteer to update the changes list
16:16:22 <florian> RESOLVED: update changes list, find active editor, republish
16:16:39 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12711
16:16:39 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][cssom-view-1] Add CSSOM View 1 to Rough Interop
16:16:39 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12711.
16:17:09 <florian> SebastianZ: cssom-view has reasonable interop, but has many many github issues
16:17:19 <florian> SebastianZ: also needs to be republished
16:17:26 <florian> SebastianZ: I have update the changes section
16:17:38 <florian> SebastianZ: and I have included the inline wpt
16:17:57 <florian> SebastianZ: issue 8559 is about republishing
16:18:10 <ChrisL> q+
16:18:17 <florian> SebastianZ: I think we should add to rough interop
16:18:19 <florian> q+
16:18:21 <astearns> ack ChrisL
16:18:33 <florian> ChrisL: I think we should resolve to republish
16:18:59 <astearns> florian: impression this was maintained as a living-standard-ish thing
16:19:11 <astearns> florian: seems to be in a coherent state
16:19:59 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8559
16:19:59 <github-bot> Topic: [cssom-view-1] Update WD from 2016 with current spec.
16:19:59 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8559.
16:20:11 <ChrisL> +1
16:20:15 <florian> RESOLVED: publish updated WD of cssom-view-1
16:20:55 <florian> RESOLVED: add cssom-view-1 to rough interop in the snapshot
16:21:31 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12754
16:21:31 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][mediaqueries-5] Add features from Media Queries 5 to Safe to Release Exceptions
16:21:31 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12754.
16:22:13 <florian> SebastianZ: I triaged which features have good coverage and interop on the basis of having edited the wpt inline into the spec
16:22:30 <florian> SebastianZ: I'd like to go through the list maybe
16:22:32 <florian> q+
16:22:43 <astearns> ack florian
16:22:50 <astearns> florian: the ones here seem fine
16:23:03 <astearns> florian: one may show we have insufficient tests
16:23:28 <astearns> florian: scripting has 100% pass, but it does not test much at all
16:24:15 <astearns> florian: this might be true for the other features
16:27:58 <florian> florian: nevertheless, I support this set
16:28:22 <florian> ChrisL: I think it's fine, but I don't have strong confidence
16:28:28 <florian> astearns: me too
16:29:00 <florian> astearns: I think these are quite widely used anyway
16:29:22 <florian> RESOLVED: add the subset identified by SebastianZ to the safe-to-release set
16:29:57 <dbaron> FWIW Chrome has a real implementation of the scripting feature: https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/renderer/core/css/media_values.cc;l=575-584;drc=48d6f7175422b2c969c14258f9f8d5b196c28d18 though it only ever uses 2 of the 3 values
16:30:04 <florian> astearns: I was a little concerned about the pass rate, but most do seem to have 2 implementations
16:30:24 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12773
16:30:24 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-pseudo-4] Add typographic pseudo-elements to Safe to Release exceptions
16:30:24 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12773.
16:31:02 <florian> SebastianZ: fantasai mentioned in another issue that we need to resolve on a syntax question
16:31:24 <florian> SebastianZ: the :: syntax has been in all browsers for many years
16:32:05 <florian> ChrisL: css2 had the same thing, but with a single colon
16:32:28 <florian> SebastianZ: so we should resolve that all the typographic pseudo elements, with the :: syntax, are safe to release
16:32:48 <dbaron> https://www.w3.org/TR/selectors-3/#pseudo-elements
16:32:48 <florian> dbaron: are these not in the selectors 3 recommendation
16:33:11 <florian> dbaron: which pseudos?
16:33:40 <florian> dbaron: ::first-line, ::first-letter, ::before, ::after are in selectors-3, ::marker is not
16:33:50 <florian> ChrisL: nor are ::prefix and ::postfix
16:34:18 <florian> SebastianZ: but I think these last two were in css2
16:34:20 <florian> dbaron: no
16:34:56 <florian> astearns: of the typographic pseudos, we're only concerned about ::prefix and ::postfix
16:35:09 <florian> astearns: ::marker is in a different category, tree abiding pseudos
16:35:40 <florian> SebastianZ: the idea was to mark all that were part of css2 as safe to release with the :: colon syntax
16:35:56 <florian> astearns: if they're in selectors 3, we don't need to
16:36:15 <florian> dbaron: the only missing one are ::prefix and ::postfix
16:36:34 <florian> SebastianZ: I don't remember why I added those, probably tested them before
16:37:08 <florian> astearns: we don't seem to have test for those, and edits seem to be pending too
16:37:16 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12774
16:37:17 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-conditional-5] Add `font-tech()` and `font-format()` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:37:17 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12774.
16:37:54 <florian> SebastianZ: font-tech() and font-format() from css-conditional-5 were implemented in all major browsers since 2023
16:38:04 <florian> SebastianZ: I think it was part of an interop project
16:38:19 <florian> SebastianZ: 100% interop, only 1 editorial issue on github
16:38:46 <florian> RESOLVED: font-tech() and font-format() are safe to release
16:38:47 <dbaron> +1
16:38:55 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12775
16:38:56 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][selectors-4] Add `:is()`, `:where()`, `:has()`, and selector lists in `:not()` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:38:56 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12775.
16:39:13 <florian> SebastianZ: the spec was last published in Nov 2022
16:39:35 <florian> SebastianZ: these features are implemented in all browsers since 2021, except :has(), which was part of interop 2023
16:39:44 <florian> SebastianZ: tests are at 95% interop
16:39:59 <florian> SebastianZ: there are some issues on github, but given high interop, should be safe to add
16:40:12 <florian> astearns: are there tests for selector lists in :not()
16:40:31 <florian> SebastianZ: I don't know about the tests, but I have used the feature, and it works
16:41:06 <florian> SebastianZ: yes, there are actually tests
16:41:10 <florian> SebastianZ: and they're all passing
16:41:48 <florian> RESOLVED: add :is(), :where(), and :has() to the safe to release
16:42:01 <florian> astearns: anything else in that spec?
16:42:13 <florian> SebastianZ: [lists many features]
16:42:21 <florian> SebastianZ: focus-within should probably go there too
16:42:23 <florian> q+
16:42:37 <dbaron> the column selector stuff is also in selectors 4
16:42:43 <florian> RESOLVED: selector list in :not() are also safe to release
16:42:52 <astearns> ack florian
16:43:03 <florian> florian: focus-within should be good too
16:43:12 <florian> astearns: let's do a new issue for that
16:43:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/12-css-minutes.html fantasai
16:43:45 <florian> ACTION SebastianZ to go through selectors-4 and check for additional safe-to-release features
16:44:10 <florian> ACTION: SebastianZ to go through selectors-4 and check for additional safe-to-release features
16:44:24 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12776
16:44:24 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-images-4] Add `conic-gradient()` and `<color-interpolation-method>` for gradient functions to Safe to Release exceptions
16:44:24 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12776.
16:44:59 <ChrisL> q+
16:45:07 <florian> SebastianZ: interop is somewhat high, with 83%
16:45:16 <florian> SebastianZ: there are about 9 issues on github, plus 3 in the spec
16:45:29 <astearns> ack ChrisL
16:45:32 <florian> SebastianZ: given high interop and few open issues, I think it's ok for safe to release
16:45:49 <florian> ChrisL: conic gradients have been available for a while, the spec was lagging
16:46:22 <florian> ChrisL: color interoplation methods is widely implemented, except for the thing we resolved on 2 weeks ago
16:46:36 <florian> ChrisL: except for that, it seems good and should be in
16:46:59 <florian> astearns: I think we can put it in safe to release, even with that consideration, because it does seem safe
16:47:24 <ChrisL> +1
16:47:37 <florian> RESOLVED: add conic-gradients and color-interopolation-method to safe to release
16:48:39 <astearns> ack fantasai
16:48:39 <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to comment on different topic
16:49:01 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12777
16:49:01 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-easing-2] Add `linear()` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:49:01 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12777.
16:49:33 <florian> SebastianZ: there was an issue about whether it is in shippable state, and we resolved it is
16:49:41 <florian> SebastianZ: implemented across browsers since 2023
16:50:05 <florian> SebastianZ: interop is not that high (68%), but we already said it's fine
16:50:22 <florian> SebastianZ: just one open issue on github, none in the spec
16:50:42 <florian> astearns: the shipable state issue said OK for FPWD, but did not say OK to ship
16:50:47 <florian> SebastianZ: Ah, right
16:51:18 <florian> SebastianZ: does someone remember if we discussed shipability, or publication only?
16:51:29 <florian> astearns: seems we only discussed publishing first
16:52:02 <florian> florian: so the precondition is fulfilled, but is the feature good enough?
16:52:28 <florian> astearns: test pass rate seems low, I am not OK with putting it in safe to release
16:52:37 <florian> astearns: test results show lack of interop
16:53:00 <florian> SebastianZ: safe-to-release is supposed to be about spec status, not interop
16:53:16 <florian> astearns: editor said it's good
16:54:00 <florian> astearns: I'm leaning to not yet
16:54:28 <florian> fantasai: the test seems to be largely about specified value, not behavior
16:54:42 <florian> fantasai: doesn't seem like a big deal
16:54:57 <florian> astearns: I just don't feel confident
16:55:31 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12779
16:55:31 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-text-decor-4] Add `text-decoration-thickness`, `text-underline-offset` properties and `from-font` value for `text-underline-position` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:55:31 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12779.
16:55:49 <florian> SebastianZ: interop is not that high
16:55:57 <florian> SebastianZ: spec last published in May 2022
16:56:13 <florian> SebastianZ: implemeted in all major browsers, but with moderate interop (66%)
16:56:21 <florian> SebastianZ: only 2 issues on github, 1 in the spec
16:56:52 <florian> fantasai: look like fairly minor issues (spec bug, rounding question)
16:57:02 <florian> fantasai: not concerning from a spec perspective
16:57:54 <florian> RESOLVED: add `text-decoration-thickness`, `text-underline-offset` properties and `from-font` for  `text-underline-position` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:58:21 <astearns> github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12780
16:58:21 <github-bot> Topic: [css-2025][css-env-1] Add `env(safe-area-inset-*)` to Safe to Release exceptions
16:58:21 <github-bot> OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12780.
16:58:50 <florian> SebastianZ: spec is not published yet, not even FPWD, but there's already an issue for the 6729
16:59:03 <ChrisL> q+
16:59:04 <florian> florian: interop is at 88%
16:59:16 <florian> s/issue for the/issue for that
16:59:21 <astearns> ack ChrisL
16:59:24 <florian> SebastianZ: 10 issues in total
16:59:51 <florian> ChrisL: this has been blocked from FPWD from 2021 because of a request on Apple to submit a list of env features, which seems wasn't done
17:00:20 <florian> ChrisL: there seems to be contention on the list
17:00:28 <fantasai> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11899
17:00:38 <florian> fantasai: we should circle back on that
17:00:51 <florian> ChrisL: we should decide if we add or not, but either way, we should do a FPWD
17:00:59 <florian> astearns: and then we can add to the snapshot
17:01:27 <florian> astearns: it's safer to wait
17:02:25 <astearns> topic: end
17:02:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/12-css-minutes.html florian
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