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12:04:09 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:04:10 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:04:47 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-09-11: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0013.html
12:04:48 <ivan> Chair: wendy
12:04:48 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:04:48 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0013.html
12:20:22 <ivan> regrets+ GautierSchomel
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13:01:50 <ivan> present+ avneeshsingh
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13:02:36 <ivan> present+ dale
13:03:15 <duga> scribe+
13:03:20 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
13:03:52 <wendyreid> Topic: PR 2788 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2788
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13:04:05 <duga> wendyreid: Discussing scrolled in rendition:layout
13:04:06 <CharlesL> present+
13:04:09 <duga> ... over to Hadrien
13:04:22 <duga> Hadrien: This is a followup to continuous scrolled comics
13:04:28 <George> George has joined #pmwg
13:04:57 <duga> ... we had an agreement that a new value was a good idea, and we would add a note to explain what has happened to date
13:05:30 <duga> ... Working on it, there was a lot in fixed layout that aren't really fixed layout
13:05:38 <ivan> present+ elisabeth_kraler
13:05:55 <duga> ... for instance, the property for layout was a subsection, even though it can specify flowing
13:06:10 <Elizabeth> Elizabeth has joined #pmwg
13:06:27 <duga> ... so i bumped it up a level, and then after some more feeedback from mgarrish I reorgoanized again
13:06:49 <duga> ... I also added an example from a previous doc
13:07:06 <duga> ... this is really a draft, since I have yet to add the RS side, and I still don't have the note
13:07:47 <duga> ... I am a bit concerned about revisiting again
13:08:04 <duga> ... since we already have agreement
13:08:05 <wendyreid> q?
13:08:08 <duga> q+
13:08:11 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:08:17 <SueNeu> scribe+
13:08:33 <SueNeu> duga: I was reading the comments this morning
13:09:03 <SueNeu> …I understand not wanting to re litigate this, it works, I'm not interested in revisiting this
13:09:23 <SueNeu> …we shouldn't discount the fact that @ivan is confused, so I'm certain others are alos
13:09:34 <SueNeu> …I'm concerned we haven't made this clear enough
13:09:35 <ivan> q+
13:09:46 <SueNeu> …perhaps it is because we are missing the reading system piece
13:10:02 <SueNeu> …perhaps "scrolled" is the wrong word, it is a behavior, not a format
13:10:18 <SueNeu> …and we have used it somewhere else for something different
13:10:38 <SueNeu> …perhaps we should find a name that expressed the format and not the reading system behavior
13:10:47 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:10:48 <SueNeu> …like contiguous vertical
13:10:59 <duga> ivan: Forgget about the comment about alternatives
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13:11:09 <duga> ...I officially revoke that comment
13:11:19 <SueNeu> s/Fogget/forget
13:11:23 <duga> ... but the term itself is what I find confusing, since it is already used
13:11:26 <CharlesL>  q+
13:11:38 <duga> ... so if we find another term I am happy
13:11:46 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:12:02 <duga> CharlesL: Are there horizontal scroll comics
13:12:03 <Hadrien> q+
13:12:06 <duga> ... ?
13:12:15 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:12:25 <duga> Hadrien: That is a thing, but uncommon
13:12:48 <SueNeu> q+
13:12:52 <duga> ... We did cover a possible direction field
13:12:54 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:13:23 <duga> SueNeu: Do we feel that horizontal scroll can be specified with FL?
13:13:53 <duga> Hadrien: Not really, same problem as vertical
13:13:55 <mgarrish> q+
13:14:00 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:14:15 <duga> mgarrish: Are comics the sole use case here?
13:14:17 <duga> q+
13:14:20 <Hadrien> q+
13:14:21 <SueNeu> q+
13:14:26 <duga> ... Rather than scrolled
13:14:32 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:14:33 <LaurentLM> comics is a US term
13:15:00 <SueNeu> duga: I did consider that, but it seems that is also a layout term
13:15:12 <SueNeu> …what if someone wants to use if for something else
13:15:27 <SueNeu> …I don't like the term vertical that I suggested,
13:15:29 <Dale> q+
13:15:38 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:15:40 <SueNeu> …because then we can't pivot to a horizontal format
13:15:54 <duga> Hadrien: I do think the only real use case are comics
13:16:17 <duga> ... having an html container is less than ideal for this use
13:16:28 <duga> ... Industry would prefer a list of images
13:16:38 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:17:06 <duga> SueNeu: Amazon calls everything comics, even children's books
13:17:26 <duga> ... I have a lot of questions what the document would look like
13:17:33 <duga> Hadrien: What do you mean?
13:18:22 <duga> SueNeu: Is it one html with multiple images? Can this apply for panel by panel navigation?
13:18:38 <LaurentLM> q+
13:18:44 <CharlesL> q+
13:18:51 <duga> Hadrien: for this content, there is no concept of a page. Think of the files as if they were tiles
13:19:23 <duga> ... the comics themselves are designed to be read in a continuous scroll
13:19:37 <wendyreid> ack Dale
13:19:56 <wendyreid> q+
13:20:12 <duga> Dale: I wonder if this is the way it is, because people approach epubs coming from the web, and that is the convention there
13:21:01 <duga> ... Do we want to lock people into a convention or do we want people to have a chance to experiment?
13:21:21 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:22:01 <duga> LaurentLM: Today there is no question, the webtoon is tiled vertically, period. If there is one case where the RS must follow the author intent, this is it
13:22:29 <duga> ... We have seen some horizontal, but they did not have much success
13:23:03 <shiestyle> q+
13:23:07 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:23:08 <duga> ... If scrolled is not a layout, how about pageless? It is very literal
13:23:57 <duga> CharlesL: According to some LLM, I got 'axis' or 'single axis', or 'ribbon'.
13:23:58 <duga> q+
13:24:06 <LaurentLM> q+
13:24:09 <duga> ... also continuous
13:24:09 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:24:25 <duga> wendyreid: To Dale, the reason these exist is due to mobile phones
13:24:42 <duga> ... It is the most natural way to read comics on the phone
13:25:01 <duga> ... traditional omics are not as good on the phone (zoom, etc)
13:25:33 <duga> ... the challenge is more and more RSes support scrolled for flowing as well
13:25:37 <SueNeu> q+
13:26:13 <duga> ... we do need to be clear that we are discussing fixed width image format and not other content
13:26:13 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:26:36 <duga> shiestyle: I just proposed unpaginated or pagefree
13:27:10 <LaurentLM> q-
13:27:24 <toshiakikoike> +1
13:27:26 <duga> ... we can define vertical is the default
13:27:32 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:28:07 <SueNeu> duga: I'm enjoying the "pageless" and "page-free" we could add "contiguous"
13:28:26 <SueNeu>  …I don't like "unpaginated" since it is negative
13:28:46 <SueNeu> …we could take this offline and find a way for ranked choice voting
13:28:57 <SueNeu> …we could talk about this name for the rest of the meeting
13:29:02 <wendyreid> zakim, what color is your bikeshed
13:29:02 <Zakim> yeah, Persian rose
13:29:44 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:29:50 <duga> wendyreid: That makes sense, let's go back to content
13:30:01 <Hadrien> q+
13:30:14 <duga> SueNeu: Hadrien mentioned tiles, what are the tiles, are they svg, jpeg, etc?
13:30:25 <duga> LaurentLM: Curently they are jpeg pictures
13:30:26 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:31:00 <duga> Hadrien: It is still common to send a single file, and let the publisher cut it down to size
13:31:21 <duga> ... but the reality is no one in this industry cares about html
13:31:34 <ivan> q+
13:31:38 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:31:38 <duga> ... the industry today is just bitmaps
13:31:52 <duga> ... and html isn't really helping, even for a11y
13:32:17 <duga> ivan: I think we said we should look at the a11y issues again, with fallbacks for images
13:32:32 <duga> ... and maybe this is something we should address in the WG, but not today
13:33:17 <ivan> q+
13:33:22 <duga> wendyreid: Aside from the name and a11y, what else is there?
13:33:27 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:33:55 <duga> ivan: I am in favor with going forward, and the new structure works for me
13:34:17 <duga> ... for the RS, you have a sentence that characterizes what you expect will happen
13:34:47 <SueNeu> q+
13:34:57 <wendyreid> q+
13:35:01 <duga> ... the one thing missing is the log entry, that we need
13:35:05 <Hadrien> q+
13:35:18 <duga> ... Big question: will we have enough implementations?
13:35:32 <wendyreid> ack SueNeu
13:36:10 <duga> SueNeu: I was also thinking that scrolling was an option for flowing, but wasn't supported by RSes
13:36:17 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:36:37 <duga> wendyreid: Totally different question, probably for authoring spec:
13:37:23 <duga> ... we do have to tell authors how to construct a scrolled document, and we need that to be consistent enough that implementers can do stuff with it
13:38:16 <duga> ... traditionally, these are released as chapters, but you may also get a season, is it one html file with a single chapter, or do we have something to tell us where the boundaries are? How do we address that?
13:38:33 <duga> ... One hack might be a single file per chapter
13:38:34 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:39:05 <duga> Hadrien: There is a technical reason for multi files, mainly performance
13:39:27 <duga> ... ideally we would have a bunch of images, and then something else that would define a structure
13:39:40 <mgarrish> q+
13:39:57 <duga> ... I think it will have to be one html per tile, and structure can be in the nav document
13:40:31 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:40:31 <duga> ... I do agree that full seasons make sense for some retailers who can't handle a subscription
13:41:25 <duga> mgarrish: The whole 1to1 html to image is an old topic, but you can add images directly to the spine, with a fallback to a single html document
13:41:39 <wendyreid> q+
13:41:59 <duga> ... So there are workarounds to the spine level image documents
13:42:00 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:42:49 <Hadrien> q+
13:43:17 <duga> wendyreid: On the html file per tile question, we used to require this for performance, but do we really still need this? Performance is now much better
13:43:19 <duga> q+
13:43:43 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:43:52 <duga> ... And does having a local file change anything, since you don't have to stream?
13:44:33 <duga> Hadrien: For a good RS, they usually have a few files in memory and discard the ones that won't be needed soon
13:44:44 <duga> ... Usually this is done with images directly
13:44:59 <duga> ... on the web, I have seen canvas, iframe, etc
13:45:10 <duga> ... but you always have this caching to make it work
13:45:13 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:45:42 <SueNeu> duga: both of these work, you could put all your content into a single HTML and then put images in the spine
13:45:55 <SueNeu> …or you could split up your images to individual HTML files
13:45:57 <Hadrien> q+
13:46:04 <SueNeu> …the industry will decide which one
13:46:27 <Dale> q+
13:46:28 <SueNeu> …if the giant HTML causes performance issues people will stop
13:46:36 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:46:52 <SueNeu> …if publishers don't like making one HTML per panel they will not do that
13:47:04 <duga> Hadrien: I think what mgarrish suggested was that we can do images in spine, we can just point at a "this is broken" html
13:47:23 <duga> ... which is different from what you said
13:47:39 <duga> ... if people are comfortable with that then it is fine
13:47:44 <duga> q+
13:47:48 <wendyreid> ack Dale
13:47:53 <duga> ... so I very much agree with mgarrish
13:48:00 <shiestyle> q+
13:48:22 <duga> Dale: as a web designer, I was taught that as I develop a design, I am always in the viewport
13:48:25 <ivan> q+
13:48:40 <duga> ... so I am always in the browser, and I adjust what I am doing to the browser
13:48:58 <duga> ... and I am learning not all RSes handle content in the same way
13:50:06 <duga> ... so I am wondering, as we discuss the spec, how much does the spec say this is how it should be and the RS must adjust, vs how much are we explaining to authors what will work
13:50:12 <SueNeu> thank you Hadrien
13:50:23 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:50:59 <SueNeu> duga: I understand we can have a single file that says "this is broken"
13:51:21 <SueNeu> …or we can have a single HTML file that contains all images with single line of CSS to make width 100%
13:51:39 <SueNeu> …and you don't get that the book is broken
13:51:48 <Hadrien> q+
13:51:51 <SueNeu> …it might not be ideal, but it could be a fall back
13:52:09 <SueNeu> …it would retain the content for RS that require HTML
13:52:12 <CharlesL> q+
13:52:25 <SueNeu> …then it is up to the reading system to choose to use the HTML or the image isn the spine
13:52:34 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:52:36 <SueNeu> …this is consistent with the current spec
13:52:39 <mgarrish> q+
13:53:10 <duga> shiestyle: In Japan we had many comic epubs, we had one image in one html in the spine
13:53:17 <duga> ... and we use the same for scrolled
13:53:49 <duga> ... we have many RSes that support that, and they also support vertical scroll
13:53:55 <duga> ... even for traditional comics
13:54:14 <duga> ... So in Japan, the only difference is RS behavior. EPUB behavior is the same
13:54:28 <duga> ... with just the metadata on the EPUB
13:54:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:54:59 <duga> .... we don't need the additional metadata for episodes, etc
13:55:26 <duga> ivan: The approach from duga is fine, with the minimal html file
13:56:05 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:56:05 <duga> ... But this doesn't work because the image size isn't available from just the image
13:56:37 <duga> Hadrien: The PR is designed this way due to the spec. If we want to do images in spine, then we need different requirements
13:57:28 <duga> ... on a spec level I think it is hard to say what to put in these documents (can't require images, vs broken comment)
13:57:59 <duga> ... The benefit to images in spine is it removes the guesswork
13:58:14 <duga> ... but if we do it here, we should also consider it for comics
13:58:25 <wendyreid> acl CharlesL
13:58:28 <duga> ... the ability to know vs guess is a huge benefit
13:58:28 <wendyreid> ack CharlesL
13:58:44 <duga> CharlesL: I would be uncomfortable if it cannot be made accesible
13:59:29 <duga> ... we would need an image in the spine with some way to specify alt text
13:59:54 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
14:00:49 <duga> mgarrish: if you do all the images in a single html document, you would need to only reference it once, then add blank documents
14:01:05 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
14:01:06 <Zakim> Present: MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, ivan, duga, shiestyle, Hadrien, George, wendyreid, sueneu, avneeshsingh, mgarrish, dale, gpellegrino, CharlesL, elisabeth_kraler
14:01:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see LaurentLM, Elizabeth, George, CharlesL, SueNeu, mgarrish, duga, wendyreid, MasakazuKitahara, toshiakikoike, Hadrien, shiestyle, Dale, RRSAgent, Zakim, tzviya, ivan
14:01:17 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
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14:01:51 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:01:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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