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14:01:59 <Hadrien> present+
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14:04:11 <shiestyle> zakim, start the meeting
14:04:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:04:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), shiestyle
14:04:24 <shiestyle> Meeting: Digital Comics TF
14:04:29 <MasakazuKitahara> present+
14:04:34 <shiestyle> Chair: Shinya Takami, Hadrien Gardeur
14:04:43 <shiestyle> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:04:44 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-pm-dc-minutes.html shiestyle
14:05:04 <shiestyle> present+
14:05:59 <Hadrien> present+
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14:11:00 <shiestyle> Topic: PR 2788 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2788
14:12:09 <Dale> present+
14:12:44 <shiestyle> q?
14:13:47 <CharlesL> present+
14:13:49 <CharlesL> scribe+
14:14:51 <CharlesL> Nothing to add here.
14:15:03 <CharlesL> Topic: Profile
14:15:19 <CharlesL> Hadrien: epub for comics. 1 bitmat per page.
14:15:49 <CharlesL> ... handled through conventions. how to author comics in Japan. receivers of those files they would have a good way to extract the bitmaps.
14:16:21 <CharlesL> ... another way fallbacks, we have seen comics in the spine, 1 html per page with fallback to a bitmap. If you know about that you can extract the bitmaps
14:16:39 <CharlesL> ..., or scrolled comics could be possible images in spine.
14:17:39 <CharlesL> ... there are RS content aggregators that need bitmaps but knowing different things or inspecting the files. but if we had a way to say this is a comic. Pre-paginated comics could get a bitmap per page, and scrolled would be a bitmap per tile.
14:18:05 <CharlesL> ... in Japan there could be some proprietary file formats.
14:18:22 <shiestyle> q+
14:18:25 <CharlesL> ... better to discuss together to discuss here and address.
14:18:30 <CharlesL> ack shiestyle
14:18:47 <CharlesL> shiestyle: we use a style HTML in spine each html is an image.
14:19:31 <CharlesL> ... image in spine with fallback, we plan to update BP?? version same html in spine for last 10 years
14:20:06 <CharlesL> ... image in spine extract images, we propose a solution however W3C its not good for a11y.
14:20:17 <Hadrien> q+
14:20:29 <CharlesL> ... we need to consider a11y
14:20:33 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:20:48 <shiestyle> q+
14:20:48 <duga> q+
14:20:53 <CharlesL> Hadrien: Happy to bring up a11y for comics in a future call because the current solution does not work.
14:21:03 <CharlesL> ... sometimes you go back and forth between pages.
14:21:12 <CharlesL> ... may not be on a single bitmap or page
14:21:37 <CharlesL> ... a single description alt text wont be enough and doesn't meet EAA regs.
14:21:54 <CharlesL> ... we need to make those specialize RS / aggregators better.
14:22:13 <CharlesL> ... EPUB is a mediocre option for comics currently
14:22:19 <shiestyle> ack me
14:22:56 <CharlesL> shiestyle: we should move a11y to a future call.  in Japan we had a discussion about a11y for Manga
14:23:14 <CharlesL> ... result was it is very difficult to create text / scripts for a11y.
14:23:52 <CharlesL> ... we discussed alternative approaches for Manga, audio book version we could link to those. we don't have a dedicated spec for that type of content.
14:24:15 <Hadrien> q+
14:24:20 <CharlesL> ... last year Hadrien proposed text for a11y for Manga but publishers difficult to prepare for a11y content.
14:24:20 <shiestyle> q>?
14:24:22 <shiestyle> q?
14:24:24 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:25:10 <CharlesL> duga: images in spine without a fallback it is not making images accessible. other content like inaccessible childrens books.
14:25:23 <Dale> q+
14:25:23 <CharlesL> ... are we opening a door to allow to ignore a11y.
14:25:47 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:25:56 <CharlesL> ... it would be a hard sell to just have images in spine, this is true for comics.
14:26:08 <CharlesL> Hadrien: this door was already open with fixed layout.
14:26:19 <CharlesL> ... even if they could add alt text they dont.
14:26:54 <CharlesL> ... a children's book could be made accessible. a regulator could go against a publisher since there is a technical way to make it accessible.
14:27:21 <CharlesL> ... understand your concerns about that including cost etc. EAA if the cost is too much there is an exemption for that.
14:27:42 <CharlesL> ... it is understandable although disappointing that comics are accessible.
14:28:42 <CharlesL> ... first step a11y comics to specialized organization could adapt and make comics accessible. and depending on cost then the publisher can adapt and make the content born accessible.
14:29:06 <CharlesL> shiestyle: who can provide the text for Manga, authors can not prepare the correct text always.
14:29:24 <CharlesL> Hadrien: when you do an adaptation its not the author who is doing that work.
14:29:29 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:30:37 <Hadrien> q+
14:31:59 <CharlesL> Dale: from a11y pov Hadrien says no real a11y tools, what level of a11y you are talking about. If I create a comic puting in alt on an image describing the images completely accessible?  having something in the spine / fallback a lot has to do with production / time to create an asset and sell it and if using HTML or not / adding a11y in or not it takes more time than the publisher is willing to do that and ROI is worth it.
14:32:06 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:33:42 <CharlesL> Hadrien: we can't solve the problem with the current spec and alt text is not the answer either. you need to a11y for blind but also dyslexic user with text in visuals they may understand the image but they need the the ability to tweak how the text is presented / highlighted while speaking it with read aloud.  Its wrong to produce fully accessible comics with the current spec and this needs to be addressed.
14:33:54 <LaurentLM> q+
14:34:36 <CharlesL> Hadrien: is it necessary to have a Profile, prepaginated content the approach used today 1 html per page fallback 1 bitmap does sorta works if you know about it and it is not idea.
14:34:38 <shiestyle> ack LaurentLM
14:35:13 <Hadrien> q+
14:35:22 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:35:23 <CharlesL> LaurentLM: What do you expect a profile, it will be a burden for publishers and may not be there and what would the RS do / expecations and if they see comic as a profile. I don't see the adv.
14:36:13 <shiestyle> q+
14:36:16 <CharlesL> Hadrien: take Kobo: when they have a FXL they open all FXL images and they wouldn't need to guess, and you clearly say this is a comic.
14:36:44 <CharlesL> ... do you need a metadata that you conform to this profile or is the presence of images in the spine or not.
14:37:07 <shiestyle> ack me
14:37:11 <CharlesL> ... could change how RS / aggregators would be able to use this.
14:37:53 <CharlesL> shiestyle: in Japan all fixed layout tile in spine 1 image even if the content is not only Manga. prepaginated has same structure for RS to detect.
14:38:16 <CharlesL> Hadrien: you created a convention. not something official to be shared with the rest of the world.
14:39:25 <CharlesL> ... what if new version of profile is not only in Japan but from this WG we could make this global that the industry will adopt. and be a great step forward.
14:39:59 <Hadrien> q+
14:40:31 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:40:43 <CharlesL> shiestyle: not easy to move to a global profile than Japanese style. We have a big Manga movement which is different than global needs.
14:41:27 <CharlesL> Hadrien: moving to anything new is painful.  we get that. if Japanese is involved it is a good thing and there is a lot of content using your old ways.
14:42:04 <CharlesL> shiestyle: I have reservations between global vs. Japanese needs.
14:42:22 <CharlesL> shiestyle: only a few major publishers from Japan has joined the W3C
14:42:35 <CharlesL> Hadrien: what about a CG?
14:43:10 <CharlesL> shiestyle: it is difficult for us to speak English and participate and express our views/ concerns / needs.
14:43:42 <CharlesL> Hadrien: if we did this 1:1 with a translator might help?
14:44:20 <CharlesL> ... Myself / LaurentLM will be in Japan and in Kobo / Tokyo for a good part of time in November and can meet with publishers directly.
14:44:51 <CharlesL> LaurentLM: Library for the Blind it would be great to speak to publishers directly while we are in Japan.
14:45:40 <CharlesL> LaurentLM: I do understand the need for a profile. but if we allow images in spine this requires specific handling from RS and not sure why we need this extra metadata.
14:46:27 <duga> q+
14:47:07 <CharlesL> Hadrien: lot of content html in spine with images as a fallback, if we come up with images in spine or fallback to image we could have this documented we could validate against that profile. retroactively to fit the profile even without the extra metadata. we could also recognize other metadata to recogize this specific metadata in Japan, this could help RS to leverage this.
14:47:19 <shiestyle> ack duga
14:47:52 <CharlesL> duga: not clear with the profile is telling me. 1 this is a comic and 2 there are performance tricks that could be used since the content is structured in a specific way.
14:48:23 <Hadrien> q+
14:48:52 <CharlesL> ... in playbooks there is a comics play mode, by looking at age, format, type etc. dedicated kids reader, is this for kids/comics and will send it to an appropriate reader.
14:49:12 <CharlesL> ... could take advantage of rendering or is it telling me just this is a comic.
14:49:13 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:49:57 <CharlesL> Hadrien: taking the guess work out is the major win. I agree there is a question if we are only targeting comics or content with images.
14:50:43 <Dale> q+
14:51:04 <CharlesL> ... we could prepossess when you know you have a Bitmap, I see pros/cons for both. limiting to comic but other content could benefit from it, but could be a con to cover kids book
14:51:14 <shiestyle> ack Dale
14:52:11 <Hadrien> q+
14:52:26 <CharlesL> Dale: Sue has talked about, ch 1 reflowable, ch 2 is fixed layout so when I hear this wondering if the usecase this is only for complete cover to end all that exists is images.
14:54:02 <CharlesL> ... Kindle create had issues which kept rejecting but KDP wont accept it because the so many images you must make it into a comic book and had to make the reflowable content into a PDF. Thorium/Readium could open it but KDP couldn't handle this.
14:54:42 <CharlesL> ... in real world if I knew about what the Japanese RS needed then I could maybe tap into that market.
14:55:20 <CharlesL> ... if we said this profile is comic does that mean we can't have any reflowable content in there.
14:55:42 <CharlesL> ... in my spine say this is an image, this is reflow, this is an image etc.
14:55:47 <shiestyle> ack Hadrien
14:55:54 <CharlesL> Hadrien: Yes cover to cover is a bitmap.
14:56:14 <CharlesL> ... guess work is problematic, which you saw this KDP had to guess what your content was.
14:56:37 <CharlesL> ... your EPUB could be treated different ways because of the guess work. Good example of why we need this.
14:56:54 <CharlesL> ... spine overrides does allow in the spec but not widely supported.
14:57:19 <CharlesL> ... trap we have in the spec where we document ways but in practice (18 years) won't work.
14:58:13 <CharlesL> ... I think its a risk having this in the spec which is not really supported.
14:59:47 <CharlesL> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:09 <CharlesL> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:00:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/11-pm-dc-minutes.html CharlesL
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