17:03:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
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17:03:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:03:35 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:03:54 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:04:03 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:04:09 <Joe_Humbert> present+
17:04:13 <Matt_King> present+
17:04:29 <mmoss> mmoss has joined #aria-at
17:04:40 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
17:04:47 <mmoss> present+
17:04:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll meet on Thursday of next week
17:05:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: However, we will NOT meet the following week (when we would normally meet on Wednesday the 24)
17:05:31 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
17:05:33 <jugglinmike> present+ Carmen
17:05:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I didn't have time to create an agenda for today's meeting; we'll simply review the test plans in the test queue
17:06:04 <jugglinmike> Topic: Disclosure of Answers to Frequently Asked Questions Example
17:06:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The only screen reader we have left to work on is VoiceOver
17:06:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like Joe_Humbert is all the way done
17:06:29 <jugglinmike> present+ mmoss
17:06:37 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'll have my part done by the end of the day, for sure
17:06:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Awesome!
17:07:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I haven't raised any issues in my latest round of testing
17:07:06 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
17:07:12 <jugglinmike> Topic: Rating Radio Group
17:07:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're skipping this for now; it's still on hold
17:07:26 <jugglinmike> Topic: Switch Example
17:07:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're only working on VoiceOver on this Test Plan, as well
17:07:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This one doesn't have any conflicts, either
17:08:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Elizabeth and Joe_Humbert ran this one
17:08:24 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I ran this a couple days ago. Again, I reported no issues
17:08:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Elizabeth hasn't been here for a little while. I think IsaDC reached out to Elizabeth before IsaDC left, but I don't know the outcome of that
17:09:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We may have to re-assign Elizabeth's work
17:09:59 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I will double-check the commands that I ran to be sure that I accurately reported the "untestable" condition
17:12:27 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-at
17:12:50 <jugglinmike> present+ mfairchild
17:12:56 <jugglinmike> present+ dean
17:13:02 <jugglinmike> present+ kelly
17:16:00 <jugglinmike> Topic: Switch Example Using HTML Button
17:16:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In this one, we have five conflicts for VoiceOver
17:16:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert's results and dean's results are conflicting
17:16:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I marked the first as "unexpected behavior" and dean marked it as nothing
17:17:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is test 2, which is a "navigate backwards" test. Also 7 and 8
17:17:54 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: in test 7, I listed unexpected behaviors, but dean did not. We reported the same AT responses and assigned the same assertion verdicts
17:18:22 <jugglinmike> dean: I think Joe_Humbert is correct on test 7
17:18:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: so on test 1, though, it did find the button?
17:19:08 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: No, on test 1, since its VoiceOver, instead of saying "no buttons," it goes to the "run test setup" button. We both indicated that
17:19:42 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm looking at all these, and like Joe_Humbert said, the only difference is that I didn't mark anything as "unexpected behavior." I have no problem changing to what Joe_Humbert reported
17:20:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: When I checked "untestable", it automatically changed the radio button to "unexpected behaviors" to "yes"
17:20:22 <jugglinmike> dean: I don't think it did that for me
17:20:34 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I observed the same behavior as what Joe_Humbert just described
17:20:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: And that's the way it's supposed to function
17:21:18 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Maybe dean was able to get around that by testing with an earlier version of the application
17:21:33 <jugglinmike> dean: Or I may have manually changed "unexpected behaviors" from "yes" to "no"
17:22:44 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: The "no" option should be disabled when "untestable" is checked
17:23:03 <jugglinmike> s/option/radio button/
17:23:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Well now, I'm questioning whether or not we should have the "b" command in the test plan...
17:24:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The reason we included "b" in the first place is because we thought two of the three screen readers were treating switches a buttons.
17:24:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We were going to make the case that, "hey, it's called a switch button, so shouldn't it be included?"
17:25:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But at least when it's coded this way, it seems to be working
17:25:20 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It looks like it goes to the "run test setup" button
17:25:39 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: So apparently VoiceOver and JAWS don't work with a switch when you use the "b" key
17:25:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we should remove that test
17:26:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I wondered about this, but I wasn't sure because I haven't done enough testing of switching in HTML contexts to know which buttons work and which do not
17:27:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder what iOS does when you switch to buttons on the rotor...
17:27:15 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: You can't use button in native; it only works in HTML
17:27:28 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Only a subset of the rotor is available in native
17:27:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we remove the "b" command, then the conflicts go away
17:28:06 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Some of the conflicts go away. Tests 7 and 8 have different conflicts
17:28:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I talked to James about this, and we decided to collect the data and decide based on that. Maybe we already have enough data to make a decision
17:28:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought I had tested the "b" key with at least two screen readers and found it to work. Now, I'm questioning my memory
17:29:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What did NVDA do in test 1?
17:29:19 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It worked just fine in browse mode
17:29:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So NVDA is the only one...
17:29:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any change to what Apple does in this space would really be swimming upstream
17:29:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When IsaDC returns, we'll talk though this
17:30:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we know what the path forward for fixing the conflicts is right now
17:30:17 <jugglinmike> dean: I've already fixed most of them; I'm fixing the final one was we speak
17:31:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, as for test 7...
17:31:51 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: dean and I got the same output. It's very strange--the screen reader says "no action available off"
17:32:19 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The "off" is confusing. This comes up in another test. It says "no action available off", but the visible switch updates to the correct state
17:32:29 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: The visual updates but the screen reader is not reporting that
17:32:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: This is operating a switch that is off to turn it on
17:33:03 <jugglinmike> dean: You can toggle that thing back and forth (off and on), and you can visually perceive the change, but it will not be announced by VoiceOver
17:33:05 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Right
17:33:55 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: This occurs in test 8. There, dean marked it as "pass" because it technically said "off", but I don't think that "off" is related to any state. Because no matter what you do, it reports "off"
17:35:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It does report the state when you ask for it. It's this command (and I'm 95% sure on this), it updates the state of the button visually changes, but all VoiceOver says is "no action available off" regardless of the state of the switch
17:35:17 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: For this test, you get no output when you press "space" or "enter"
17:35:36 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It seems that, at least with a switch using an HTML button, there are significant problems with VoiceOver
17:36:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: that's why I marked "unexpected behavior" even though dean did not--I wanted to have this conversation
17:36:30 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I don't think I've ever heard the screen reader say "no action available"
17:36:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It normally says when actions ARE available, but it normally wouldn't say "no actions available" unless you are trying to execute an action
17:37:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Right. But I've never heard that output from VoiceOver, so I was very confused by this
17:37:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Isn't there a side-effect in the form that is related to "incorrect or misleading output" or something like that?
17:38:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The option named "other" would be fine, too
17:38:41 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I do think we should be reporting a side-effect, especially when the switch appears to be on but it says "off"
17:38:52 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: What should we say for the details?
17:39:17 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: "VoiceOver is announcing incorrect information, but the visual state changes"
17:39:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's fine
17:40:08 <jugglinmike> dean: I wanted to make sure that we had a note somewhere that these things visually change but are not announced
17:41:20 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: There may be other conflicts in JAWS and NVDA. I'll double-check
17:41:34 <jugglinmike> dean: I'm going to finish my tests today/tomorrow because I will be out for about a week
17:41:52 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: So there may be other conflicts that are not this (because we know how to resolve these conflicts, now)
17:43:53 <jugglinmike> Topic: Tabs with Automatic Activation
17:44:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For this one, we have JAWS and VoiceOver in progress
17:44:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: VoiceOver is done. It says "99% done". I'm not sure why
17:45:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There are four conflicts--they are in test 2 and test 4
17:45:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Joe_Humbert and mmoss have different output
17:45:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You're both using the same versions of the software
17:46:09 <jugglinmike> mmoss: We have the same output; I just didn't include the entire text
17:46:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In test 2, mmoss says "you are currently on a text element." I don't see that on Joe_Humbert's output
17:46:54 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It is the last line
17:47:10 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: mmoss just didn't include all of the text output for the two commands--he just included the final line
17:47:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So for both of you, it read the entire tab panel
17:47:21 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Correct
17:47:26 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm happy to update
17:47:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Oh, right. Now, I understand
17:48:12 <jugglinmike> mmoss: Instead of navigating backwards into the tab list and onto a tab, it navigated to the tab panel
17:49:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When you navigate backwards--how in the world did it read that whole panel content...?
17:49:23 <jugglinmike> mmoss: It didn't read the tab
17:49:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did the focus ever reach the tab on "Peter Muller"?
17:49:47 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can't remember
17:50:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Why does it say "you are on a text input"?
17:50:32 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It actually says "you are on a text element", which makes sense because it is a paragraph
17:50:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Ah. That's a weird thing to say, though
17:50:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I imagine most people turn that off
17:51:06 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Do I need to add an unexpected behavior, or does mmoss need to remove the unexpected behavior?
17:51:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should be capturing the whole output, though
17:51:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: There is an unexpected behavior, here. I think the way that mmoss described it looks pretty accurate
17:52:09 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Should we change it to "the cursor moved unexpectedly"?
17:52:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that is very much the case. The reading cursor moved in an unexpected manner
17:52:29 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'll update accordingly
17:52:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: And once you do that, mmoss, I will update mine to match yours
17:52:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That was for test 2
17:52:56 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: There was a similar problem with "shift+j"
17:53:01 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: It said "form element not found"
17:53:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is that also what it did for "j"?
17:53:22 <jugglinmike> mmoss: No, it was only "shift+j"
17:53:46 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I'm happy to update my unexpected behaviors if that's what we need to do
17:54:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It just says, "no found". Does the reading cursor rectangle move at all? Or does it just stay put?
17:54:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Actually, what is the reading cursor visually placed on?
17:54:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I would have to revisit this to say
17:55:01 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I just tested real quick and confirmed that the visual cursor doesn't move at all
17:55:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This sounds like an untestable situation similar to the other "shift+j" ones
17:55:33 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: In the other cases, we were saying just that the cursor didn't move
17:55:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, yes, I think that's the way forward here, too
17:55:47 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I'll update accordingly
17:55:51 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Me, too
17:56:08 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Same conflicts for "navigating backwards", so we can resolve them in the same way
17:56:27 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: JAWS is unfinished because Hadi hasn't finished his testing. Do we need a third Tester?
17:56:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can give it some more time
17:56:41 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Hadi and Louis are assigned
17:57:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Rather than having you do that right now, I think I'd rather add the "tabs with manual activation" to the test queue, then run the bots, then have you get started on that
17:57:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the case of Hadi and Elizabeth, I'm going to give them an opportunity to finish. Hadi usually pulls through given enough time--it's just a matter of lining up with his schedule
17:57:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll add "tabs with manual activation" to the queue and start the bots and then re-assign to you, Joe_Humbert
17:58:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll work on getting to that today
17:58:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, that's all for today. Thanks to everyone for the great testing!
17:59:35 <jugglinmike> mmoss: I will be out all of next week, but I will be back after that, and I will complete all the testing which is currently assigned to me by the end of the day
17:59:43 <jugglinmike> zakim, end the meeting
17:59:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, Matt_King, mmoss, Carmen, mfairchild, dean, kelly
17:59:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:59:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/10-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:53 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:59:53 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
17:59:57 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, leave
17:59:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items