18:02:57 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:03:01 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/09-aria-apg-irc 18:03:01 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:03:02 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:03:02 present+ jugglinmike 18:03:04 Jem has joined #aria-apg 18:03:05 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:04:01 present+ Adam_Page 18:04:07 present+ howard-e 18:04:11 present+ Jem 18:04:13 present+ 18:04:14 present+ jongund 18:04:17 present+ CurtBellew 18:04:17 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:04:27 present+ 18:04:39 present+ Daniel 18:05:01 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:05:03 present+ 18:05:05 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/September-9%2C-2025-Agenda 18:05:12 present+ Matt_King 18:05:19 Jem: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:06:04 Jem: Hearing none, we'll stick to the agenda as planned 18:06:08 Jem: Next meeting: September 16 18:06:14 Jem: No meeting September 23 18:06:33 Topic: Publication planning 18:06:51 Matt_King: Per our discussion last week, we set publication for Wednesday of next week 18:06:56 Matt_King: We confirmed that with howard-e 18:07:02 Daniel: no problem on our side 18:07:21 Matt_King: We'll probably have six pull requests landed by then 18:07:39 Matt_King: There are two pull requests that are up in the air. 3213 is the "skipTo" links, but that has a mobile problem 18:07:53 Matt_King: Skip nav used to work, but people are having difficulty with this new version 18:08:12 jongund: I can't figure out why the new version isn't working. It isn't going to change any functionality, though 18:08:31 jongund: On my iPhone, it seems to work, but if I try my tablet, it doesn't work 18:08:41 jongund: And it didn't work on my iPhone on the week it was reported 18:08:53 Matt_King: Adam_Page and ari both reproduced the problem 18:09:14 jongund: It's some weird thing with VoiceOver on the phone, I think. I don't know. I'll keep working on it, but I won't spend time on it until October 18:09:19 Matt_King: Okay, then that will be for later 18:09:41 Matt_King: And then pull request #3311 is ready to go, I just need to merge it (it says that it's waiting on review, but I performed that review, already) 18:09:56 Matt_King: There are two others on the agenda today that I'm pretty confident that we can land by next week 18:10:02 Matt_King: So I guess five of the seven will be ready 18:10:09 Topic: PR 3328: Add Quantity Spin Button 18:10:14 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3328 18:10:31 Matt_King: We talked about changes last week, and I saw that Adam_Page pushed a commit since then 18:10:41 Matt_King: It had to do with allowing people to type in essentially any value 18:11:05 Adam_Page: I read the meeting minutes and agreed, so I made the text inputs more permissive so that people can keep typing 18:11:27 Adam_Page: It introduced a validation pattern for APG. I think this is the first occurrence of aria-invalid in an APG example 18:11:40 Matt_King: That's one of the reasons I think this is pretty cool because we've been missing that for some time 18:11:49 Matt_King: What about ARIA error message? 18:11:55 Adam_Page: Ah, the white whale 18:12:14 Matt_King: Should we be modeling the usage of that? 18:12:28 Adam_Page: I haven't used it in a long time, so anecdotally, is it true that it isn't supported? 18:12:40 Matt_King: I don't know, actually. That might itself be a good reason to include it 18:13:13 Daniel: ARIA 1.2 is a recommendation, but ARIA 1.3 still isn't a recommendation 18:13:22 Matt_King: Error message is in 1.2 18:13:39 CurtBellew: The browsers do what they're supposed to do, but there's no requirement that the ATs actually use it 18:13:45 Matt_King: This is why we're working on interoperability 18:14:12 Adam_Page: Maybe this is a good opportunity to apply pressure--to role-model use of this and provide a nice example to start to socialize 18:14:40 Matt_King: We put the ARIA-AT test plan for "spin button" on hold a couple weeks ago because of this pull request 18:14:59 -> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.2/#aria-errormessage aria error message spec prose 18:15:09 Matt_King: Those plans are starting to get real traction. They certainly have traction with Vispero, and I'm hoping Apple will pick it up, too 18:15:16 Matt_King: So I do think this is an opportunity right now 18:15:22 Adam_Page: I'd be glad to look into it 18:15:35 Adam_Page: Basically, I'll be replacing aria-describedby 18:16:01 Adam_Page: I'm interested in seeing what happens. I'm assuming that AT support isn't great and that the user experience will suffer 18:16:11 Matt_King: I'm hoping that's not the case, but I guess we'll find out 18:16:43 Matt_King: We do want to publish next week. Has anyone looked at your latest work related to aria-invalid and the tests? 18:16:54 Adam_Page: I doubt anyone has reviewed--I only just pushed it at 22:00 last night 18:17:13 Adam_Page: Even those changes are non-trivial, so it would worry me to rush it out the door without another good round of review 18:17:28 Adam_Page: And I can add aria-errormessage today 18:17:44 Matt_King: Do we have reviewers available after today and before the next meeting? 18:18:00 howard-e: I can re-review the code changes. I'm assuming there are some test changes, too 18:19:44 Adam_Page: Minimal changes to the tests, honestly. There is one change I made along the way when I added aria-invalid. I'm using aria-disabled and aria-invalid (both boolean). When I added aria-invalid, I was reminded of some work that Rahim is doing about the reflection of these attributes, where the absence of a value is interpreted as "null." In that vein, I updated my usage of both boolean attributes to toggle between the "true" va 18:19:44 lue and the absence of the attribute. 18:19:52 Adam_Page: ...and I updated the tests accordingly 18:20:04 present+ siri 18:20:21 Matt_King: For a screen reader, the only way to get there is with the virtual cursor 18:20:25 Adam_Page: Right 18:20:42 Matt_King: These are going to make for some really good tests! 18:20:48 Siri has joined #aria-apg 18:21:10 present+ 18:21:24 Adam_Page: I think that's the only interesting change that I made on my own--the only change that wasn't a direct reaction to feedback 18:21:33 jongund: I can help review 18:21:38 CurtBellew: I should be available this week 18:21:52 Jem: I'm busy with a big conference 18:22:03 Jem: But I can certainly assign the other reviewers 18:23:07 Siri: I can review, as well 18:23:24 Matt_King: Great! Hopefully we'll get all this review and land this in time for publication next week 18:24:06 Adam_Page: I have one last question. One of Siri's other question was that in iOS, VoiceOver will express the value as a percentage (presumably as a result of the min and max values being set). That feels a bit awkward. I'm wondering there's any action I can take 18:24:11 Matt_King: I don't think so 18:24:19 Adam_Page: I thought I could use aria-valuetext... 18:24:39 Matt_King: That is intended to prevent that from happening, but I believe that in fact, it currently does not 18:25:23 Matt_King: In this case, though, because we have numeric min and max, it's not necessarily a screen reader bug. I think it's an acceptable behavior; it's maybe just a little superfluous 18:25:34 Matt_King: They should do it for sliders, not for spin buttons 18:26:11 Adam_Page: It's certainly a little awkward for my use-case in the hospitality industry 18:28:56 Adam_Page: One last thing: when I pushed up my commit last night, I got a spell-check failure. The string that's failing is "inval". It's apparently triggering this failure from the CSS file. 18:29:13 Adam_Page: Why are we doing spell checking on CSS, and do we have to? If so, it seems like there's a bug 18:29:27 Matt_King: I didn't know that we were spell-checking the CSS 18:29:33 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/actions/runs/17573152826/job/49912867040?pr=3328#step:5:244 18:29:44 jongund: I've noticed that, too--that I've had to change CSS names to satisfy the spell checker 18:29:53 howard-e: I can't speak to why that's there 18:30:07 Adam_Page: I was tempted to add "inval" to our allow-list 18:30:22 Matt_King: I would rather not because then if "inval" shows up in regular content, we won't catch it 18:30:41 howard-e: I'd be inclined to remove CSS spell-checking. I will investigate further and advise. 18:30:46 Matt_King: I'd support that 18:31:02 Matt_King: I'm totally fine with CSS not being spell-checked 18:31:15 Adam_Page: It also failed on the same word as present in the HTML 18:31:31 Adam_Page: When I added "aria-invalid" to the attributes table, I think it caught that 18:31:45 Matt_King: It seems like a cspell error because it's not after the whole word 18:32:08 Adam_Page: As howard-e mentioned, it's suspicious that the letters it seems to be ignoring are "id" 18:33:19 howard-e: It might also have something to do with the equals sign... 18:35:21 cspell.json 18:35:49 howard-e: I can take this on 18:36:31 Topic: Editorial correction in grid pattern 18:36:37 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3356 18:36:45 Jem: We need one more reviewer 18:37:06 Matt_King: I reviewed this, and I'm reasonably confident in my review, but I would like one other person to verify 18:37:13 Jem: I can do that. I'll assign myself 18:37:59 Topic: PR 3304 : Removed timeout code for reseting search string in select only combobox 18:38:05 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3304 18:38:27 Matt_King: This is a pull request that jongund raised 18:38:48 Matt_King: I think it's related to testing in response to another comment or issue. It might be a throwaway pull request... 18:39:04 Matt_King: Yeah, it was an odd issue related to a timeout when resetting a select box 18:39:18 s/Matt_King/jongund/ 18:39:24 jongund: It's just a throwaway pull request 18:39:39 Matt_King: There's no information here about a related issue 18:40:37 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3289 18:41:03 jongund: It's related to 3289 18:41:10 s/related/not related/ 18:41:16 jongund: It's related to another issue 18:41:26 Matt_King: I'll tie it to that other issue and close 18:41:55 Topic: Issue 3319: Use of ABBR in date picker 18:42:01 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3319 18:42:12 Matt_King: We started talking about this last week 18:42:25 Matt_King: We had a pretty small crew, though, and we didn't come up with a clear next step 18:42:43 Matt_King: Really, in issue 3319, David is just asking us to re-open a prior issue that's related to ABBR 18:43:25 Matt_King: Five years ago, I boldly said that it's imminent that we're going to test the date picker in 2020 18:43:41 Matt_King: David is probably right that it is not imminent 18:44:26 Matt_King: What we use ABBR for in the date picker combo box is that the grid has column headings for the days of the week--the content in the column headings is just two character (e.g. "Mo" for "Monday") 18:44:45 Matt_King: The column headers have ABBR, which specify the full form of the day of the week 18:45:23 Matt_King: When you do that in regular tables, some screen readers (I don't know how many) will read the ABBR across the row (eg "Monday 1, Tuesday 2, Wednesday 3") 18:45:40 Matt_King: However, in this implementation in grid, none of the screen readers are doing that 18:45:58 Matt_King: Instead, you hear something like "Mo 1 Tue 2 We 2" 18:46:11 Matt_King: We could use aria-label. That's one solution 18:46:22 Matt_King: Another solution is not to use two-character abbreviations 18:46:55 Matt_King: What should the ARIA best-practice be for a date-picker grid like this? 18:47:17 Matt_King: First, let's answer the basic question: can we re-open 1570? 18:47:48 CurtBellew: I think so. This hits us everyone once in a while. There's not a good way to announce the un-abbreviated version of the day of the week 18:48:14 Matt_King: Okay, I've re-opened the issue 18:48:15 q+ 18:48:35 ack Daniel 18:49:04 Daniel: Last week in ARIA we had a discussion about ABBR. It was on the other side--saying that ABBR should not be part of the accessible name (which I would agree with) 18:49:41 Daniel: In this case, as long as it's on the description, that's fine with me. But we should be careful with the message that we're communicating. That ABBR is a secondary piece of information, and in this case, the number of the day should be the accessible name 18:49:55 Matt_King: Column headers and row headers do not name cells. They are not labels; they're an association 18:50:00 Matt_King: This is a really complex issue! 18:51:01 Matt_King: The content of the content-header for Tuesday of this month is "2 Tu". If you were to put a label on the column header, I thin that would hide the "t u" 18:52:03 Matt_King: If that's case, it would be a fix, but it would have the side-effect of screen readers not being able to know that it's actually just a "T u" there and not the full word "Tuesday" 18:52:22 Matt_King: Hiding text that's on the screen has always been something that I think we should approach pretty gingerly 18:52:35 Daniel: From a screen-reader user's perspective, is that something we really want? 18:53:30 Matt_King: My bigger concern here isn't this specific use-case, but it is the more general use-case of: what do you do when you have a very verbose column header (with a lot of content), but then you're reading across in the table below, and you have to hear the whole header every time. The ABBR element was a good way to abbreviate that 18:54:15 Daniel: That's a very good point. I wonder if this is more screen-reader configuration (on whether to read the header after reading the cell or before reading it) 18:54:59 Matt_King: I switch it around fairly often. It's a lot of work to switch it, but sometimes you really want it before, and other times you really want it after 18:55:34 Matt_King: But it still seems that there is a problem that needs a solution, and it seems like ABBR was doing exactly what we want in that case. It reads the content of the header cell, but it doesn't force you to hear the entire content when you are reading cells that are not the header cell 18:55:48 Matt_King: That's why I suggested using ABBR here, to kind of push this as the solution 18:56:10 Daniel: Yeah, I don't mean to push hard, but I did want to share another perspective with the group 18:56:45 Matt_King: The title of issue 1570 is "date picker announces days of the week as letters". It sounds like Daniel is saying that it is a problem but it isn't a big deal 18:57:19 Daniel: Right. We're also using a shorthand, but this isn't technically what ABBR was meant to do 18:57:36 Daniel: In this particular case, you observe it correctly, but that may not be so in other cases 18:57:45 Matt_King: The actual purpose of ABBR is to provide the expansion 18:58:09 Matt_King: so when we have ARIA, the ABBR tag would include the content "Accessible Rich Internet Application" 18:58:25 Daniel: Right, and for "Tu", you would have "Tuesday" in the abbreviation 19:00:45 Matt_King: The code uses an "abbr" attribute, not an "abbr" element 19:02:30 https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Elements/abbr 19:03:23 Matt_King: In light of that, I don't know whether what we're doing here is to-spec or not to-spec 19:03:53 Matt_King: If anyone wants to do some investigation about whether what we're doing here is in-line with the specification, then that would be helpful 19:04:03 Adam_Page: It is a legitimate use 19:04:11 Adam_Page: I just checked the specification 19:04:15 https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#attr-th-abbr 19:04:19 Zakim, end the meeting 19:04:19 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Adam_Page, howard-e, Jem, CurtBellew, jongund, Daniel, Matt_King, siri 19:04:22 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:04:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/09-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:04:30 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:04:30 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:31:56 RRSAgent, leave 19:31:56 I see no action items