IRC log of rdf-star on 2025-09-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:57:27 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-irc
- 15:58:32 [Zakim]
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- 15:58:37 [TallTed]
- agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/e39fe026-428e-4736-8476-cb179725a892/20250904T120000/
- 15:58:38 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 15:58:38 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/08/28-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 15:58:38 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8
- 15:59:04 [niklasl]
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- 15:59:10 [TallTed]
- meeting: RDF & SPARQL WG biweekly meeting
- 15:59:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:00:12 [TallTed]
- previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/08/28-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 16:00:32 [ora]
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- 16:00:32 [TallTed]
- next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/05-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 16:00:51 [TallTed]
- chair: ora
- 16:00:54 [lisp]
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- 16:01:06 [lisp]
- present+
- 16:01:16 [TallTed]
- present+
- 16:01:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:01:40 [niklasl]
- present+
- 16:01:41 [AndyS]
- present+
- 16:01:48 [pfps]
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- 16:01:51 [ora]
- present+
- 16:01:55 [ora]
- chair+
- 16:02:04 [pchampin]
- present+
- 16:02:09 [gtw]
- present+
- 16:02:30 [Souri]
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- 16:02:36 [Souri]
- present+
- 16:03:24 [olaf]
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- 16:03:34 [Enrico]
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- 16:03:42 [Enrico]
- present+
- 16:03:57 [Dominik_T]
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- 16:04:05 [olaf]
- present+
- 16:04:15 [pfps]
- present+
- 16:04:18 [pfps]
- scribe+
- 16:04:24 [Dominik_T]
- present+
- 16:04:43 [TallTed]
- agenda?
- 16:04:56 [ora]
- zakim, next item
- 16:04:56 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Approval of last week’s minutes: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2025/08/28-rdf-star-minutes.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 16:04:57 [pfps]
- zakim, agendum 1
- 16:04:59 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'agendum 1', pfps
- 16:05:09 [doerthe]
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- 16:05:15 [doerthe]
- present+
- 16:05:21 [tl]
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- 16:05:25 [pfps]
- ora: any concerns with minutes?
- 16:05:38 [ora]
- PROPOSAL: Approve last week's minutes
- 16:05:40 [ora]
- +1
- 16:05:43 [olaf]
- +1
- 16:05:46 [gtw]
- +1
- 16:05:48 [lisp]
- +1
- 16:05:53 [pfps]
- +1
- 16:05:57 [AndyS]
- +1
- 16:06:00 [tl]
- +1
- 16:06:00 [TallTed]
- +1
- 16:06:02 [Enrico]
- +1
- 16:06:04 [Dominik_T]
- +1
- 16:06:14 [pchampin]
- +1
- 16:06:15 [niklasl]
- +1
- 16:06:19 [Souri]
- +1
- 16:06:23 [ora]
- RESOLVED: Approve last week's minutes
- 16:06:31 [ora]
- zakim, next item
- 16:06:31 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- Identifying issues to solve before CR -> 2 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/8 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 16:07:28 [pfps]
- ora: line item 1 - what are we going to do?
- 16:07:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:07:37 [ora]
- q?
- 16:07:41 [tl]
- q+
- 16:07:43 [TallTed]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169
- 16:07:44 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169 -> Issue 169 definition of reifiers is non-normative and seems vague (by rat10) [needs discussion] [propose closing] [ms:CR]
- 16:07:52 [TallTed]
- subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169
- 16:07:56 [ora]
- ack tl
- 16:08:43 [pfps]
- tl: there is a PR by Enrico that I haven't seen completely read yet
- 16:08:47 [Enrico]
- q+
- 16:08:53 [ora]
- ack Enrico
- 16:08:59 [pchampin]
- Enrico's PR: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/156
- 16:09:00 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-semantics/pull/156 -> Pull Request 156 Better text in Section 5.3 with the purpose of relating triple terms and asserted triples. (by franconi)
- 16:09:15 [pfps]
- enrico: I created a PR after a conversation with James
- 16:09:40 [pfps]
- enrico: I added some clarification in the text, but no substantive changes
- 16:10:02 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:10:05 [pfps]
- enrico: we could add a class for reifiers
- 16:10:12 [pfps]
- q+
- 16:10:31 [ora]
- ack pchampin
- 16:10:38 [niklasl]
- q+
- 16:11:06 [pfps]
- pchampin: I'm -1 on defining a class for reifier because it is syntacti
- 16:11:22 [niklasl]
- +1 on "reifier is syntactic"
- 16:11:42 [pfps]
- pchampin: I'm not sure about providing a domain for rdf:reifies
- 16:11:47 [TallTed]
- rdf-semantics/pull/156 appears not to have connection to rdf-star-wg/issues/169, at least in github... that is, there is no mention of one in the other
- 16:11:59 [Enrico]
- I understand the argument by pchampin, and I agree with him
- 16:12:18 [pfps]
- pchampin: That would be just as vague as reificagtion
- 16:12:43 [ora]
- ack pfps
- 16:13:10 [lisp]
- q+
- 16:13:27 [ora]
- ack niklasl
- 16:13:34 [pfps]
- pfps: I think we are again in the situation of providing text for others when we are not sure what is wanted
- 16:13:52 [pfps]
- nicklasl: I agree that reifier is syntactic, and vague
- 16:14:37 [pfps]
- nicklasl: we don't have a class for the domain of rdfs:label, for example
- 16:14:59 [ora]
- s/nicklasl/niklasl
- 16:15:24 [ora]
- ack lisp
- 16:15:25 [pfps]
- niklasl: I think that the issue is mostly wording at this point
- 16:16:04 [pfps]
- james: enrico and I had a conversation about the text
- 16:16:28 [tl]
- q+
- 16:16:34 [ora]
- ack tl
- 16:16:58 [pfps]
- pfps: I just find it very frustrating to go on and on without knowing what is wanted
- 16:17:14 [tl]
- q+
- 16:17:28 [Enrico]
- q+
- 16:18:10 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 -> Pull Request 220 Annotations on assserted triples are based on operational semantics (by rat10) [ms:CR]
- 16:18:13 [ora]
- q?
- 16:18:16 [ora]
- ack tl
- 16:18:40 [TallTed]
- and ... https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220
- 16:18:58 [ora]
- ack Enrico
- 16:19:05 [pfps]
- tl: I posted a comment in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220 with my feelings
- 16:19:53 [pfps]
- enrico: I see agreement on PR 156
- 16:19:57 [AndyS]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220#issuecomment-3249916970
- 16:20:57 [pfps]
- enrico: as far as Semantics is concerned rdf:reifies is not special
- 16:21:26 [pfps]
- enrico: all that is there is that its range is rdfs:Proposition
- 16:21:27 [niklasl]
- +1 to explain purpose
- 16:21:35 [tl]
- pfps: and my comment https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/220#issuecomment-3249916970, which tries to concisely describe what Ithink is needed, was added after your last comment (as of now)
- 16:22:19 [Souri]
- s/Ithink/I think/
- 16:22:23 [pfps]
- ora: let's try to finish of these issues
- 16:22:47 [lisp]
- q+
- 16:23:05 [ora]
- ack lisp
- 16:23:06 [pfps]
- ora: what about other issues?
- 16:23:07 [Souri]
- s/finish of /finish off /
- 16:23:32 [TallTed]
- subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129
- 16:23:33 [gb]
- s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129|-">https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129|-> Issue 129 Distinguish the RDF Data Model from the Abstract Syntax (by gkellogg) [ms:CR] [needs discussion] [spec:substantive] https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129
- 16:23:54 [AndyS]
- and https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232
- 16:23:55 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232 -> Pull Request 232 revise to use "abstract data model" to unify "abstract syntax" and "data model" (by lisp)
- 16:23:56 [pfps]
- james: What about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129
- 16:24:05 [Dominik_T]
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- 16:24:14 [pfps]
- james: I adopted some changes
- 16:24:25 [AndyS]
- q+
- 16:25:17 [pfps]
- james: Peter has already approved the PR
- 16:25:19 [ora]
- ack AndyS
- 16:26:15 [pfps]
- AndyS: james, if this PR is merged can the issue be closed
- 16:26:35 [pfps]
- TallTed: I had an editorial comment
- 16:26:50 [pfps]
- james: I accepted that comment
- 16:27:04 [pfps]
- AndyS: I'll merge the PR
- 16:27:59 [pfps]
- ora: How about moving the datatype definitions?
- 16:28:16 [pfps]
- pchampin: We can close issue
- 16:28:35 [pfps]
- ora: OK
- 16:29:08 [pfps]
- AndyS: The PR needs some work before it can be merged
- 16:29:51 [pfps]
- james: I'll accept the suggested change
- 16:30:26 [TallTed]
- subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
- 16:30:26 [gb]
- s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169|-">https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169|-> Issue 169 Relative IRI Reference should bind to the irelative-ref production (by gkellogg) [ms:CR] [spec:editorial] https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
- 16:30:35 [pfps]
- ora: what about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
- 16:31:02 [TallTed]
- subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/89
- 16:31:03 [pfps]
- AndyS: That one is editorial, so I don't see why that is marked as for CR
- 16:31:03 [gb]
- s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/89|-">https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/89|-> Issue 89 Different parsing of the same absolute IRI with or without base IRI (by Tpt) [ErratumRaised] [ms:CR] [needs discussion] https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/89
- 16:31:53 [pfps]
- AndyS: RFC 3986 has some vagueness - there are legal IRIs that don't make much sense for RDF
- 16:32:33 [pfps]
- AndyS: Some of these are treated differently in N-Triples and Turtle because of base issues
- 16:33:30 [Souri]
- typo in title of https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169: irelative-ref -> relative-ref
- 16:33:37 [pfps]
- AndyS: I suggest that we add wording about treating IRI schemas correctly if possible
- 16:33:44 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:33:53 [pchampin]
- q-
- 16:34:31 [pfps]
- AndyS: So IRIs that are good will be treated the same, but iffy/unwise/ugly IRIs may be treated differently by different systems
- 16:34:54 [pfps]
- ora: There are parts of the IRI spec that allow divergence
- 16:35:32 [pfps]
- AndyS: This requires definining good IRIs
- 16:35:52 [pfps]
- AndyS: There are also issues related to . and .. path components
- 16:35:52 [TallTed]
- Souri -- typo now noted on the issue.
- 16:36:17 [pfps]
- pchampin: We already have some wording related to this
- 16:36:45 [pfps]
- pchampin: Better definitions in this area seem indicated
- 16:36:58 [pfps]
- ora: What is required?
- 16:37:29 [pfps]
- AndyS: I haven't checked the state of the PRs so I'm not sure exactly what is still needed.
- 16:37:36 [Dominik_T]
- rrsagent, generate the minutes
- 16:37:37 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
- 16:38:12 [pchampin]
- "RDF safe IRIs" ?
- 16:38:38 [pfps]
- ora: can we resolve this with some small amount of effort
- 16:39:03 [pchampin]
- +1
- 16:39:14 [pfps]
- AndyS: Can we remove the CR label on https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
- 16:39:15 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169">https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169 -> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169
- 16:39:54 [AndyS]
- q+
- 16:39:54 [pfps]
- ora: We are relying on other standards and we can't fix all their problems
- 16:40:29 [pfps]
- ora: What do we need to say in our spec ti insulate us from their problems
- 16:41:10 [pfps]
- AndyS: In some sense we are using the RFC for something that it wasn't quite intended to be used for
- 16:42:04 [TallTed]
- Souri -- `irelative-ref` is actually correct, there.
- 16:42:26 [pfps]
- ora: An explanation on how we use the RFC would be useful
- 16:42:32 [niklasl]
- Relying on formal precision (science) based on a technical environment (engineering) is ... challenging.
- 16:42:37 [ora]
- ack AndyS
- 16:42:53 [pfps]
- AndyS: Pierre-Antoine and I will work on this
- 16:43:13 [pfps]
- ora: Please report back next time
- 16:43:25 [Dominik_T]
- rrsagent, generate the minutes
- 16:43:27 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
- 16:43:49 [pfps]
- AndyS: What about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143
- 16:43:50 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143 -> Issue 143 "3.7 Replacing Blank Nodes with IRIs" very misleading (by franconi) [ms:CR] [spec:bug]
- 16:44:25 [TallTed]
- subtopic: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143
- 16:44:34 [doerthe]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/236
- 16:44:35 [gb]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/236 -> Pull Request 236 Issue #143 (Skolemization) (by doerthe)
- 16:45:19 [pfps]
- doerthe: I have something to do on this, and I would like Enrico's comments
- 16:45:34 [pchampin]
- s|AndyS: What about https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143|
- 16:45:49 [pchampin]
- s|https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143 -> Issue 143 "3.7 Replacing Blank Nodes with IRIs" very misleading (by franconi) [ms:CR] [spec:bug]|
- 16:47:07 [pfps]
- ora: What else?
- 16:47:56 [tl]
- q+
- 16:48:02 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:48:21 [ora]
- ack tl
- 16:49:08 [pfps]
- tl: five lines all relate to one issue
- 16:49:24 [ora]
- ack pchampin
- 16:49:51 [pfps]
- pchampin: I looked at RDF Concepts. I didn't find anything about vagueness of rdf:reifies
- 16:50:20 [pfps]
- pchampin: there was progress on requesting horizontal review
- 16:51:06 [pfps]
- pchampin: we are OK with some because nothing involves their area
- 16:51:29 [pfps]
- ora: Pat Hayes said it is OK to forward his email to the mailing list
- 16:51:37 [pfps]
- ora: I will do this after our meeting
- 16:51:53 [Enrico]
- q+
- 16:52:12 [ora]
- ack Enrico
- 16:52:40 [pfps]
- enrico: I committed a change to the semantics PR
- 16:53:19 [pfps]
- ora: is there a SPARQL meeting tomorrow
- 16:53:26 [pfps]
- AndyS: yes
- 16:53:29 [Dominik_T]
- rrsagent, generate the minutes
- 16:53:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
- 16:53:47 [pfps]
- ora: adjourn
- 16:54:18 [olaf]
- olaf has left #rdf-star
- 16:54:21 [pchampin]
- s/ora: What else?/Topic: AOB
- 16:54:29 [pchampin]
- RRSAgent, make minutes
- 16:54:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
- 17:02:00 [pchampin]
- m2gbot, link issues with transcript
- 17:02:00 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/169#issuecomment-3254623590
- 17:02:01 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/129#issuecomment-3254623634
- 17:02:03 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/232#issuecomment-3254623680
- 17:02:04 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169#issuecomment-3254623725
- 17:02:04 [m2gbot]
- comment already there: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/169#issuecomment-3254623725
- 17:02:06 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-turtle/issues/89#issuecomment-3254623844
- 17:02:07 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/143#issuecomment-3254623895
- 17:02:08 [m2gbot]
- comment created: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/236#issuecomment-3254623961
- 18:58:32 [pfps]
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