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12:30:52 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:30:53 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:31:01 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-09-04: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0003.html
12:31:02 <ivan> Chair: Susan
12:31:02 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:31:02 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Sep/0003.html
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12:59:25 <toshiakikoike> present+
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13:02:30 <ivan> present+ DaleRogers
13:02:41 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
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13:03:43 <ivan> present+ gpellegrino
13:04:48 <wendyreid> zakim, pick a victim
13:04:48 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose mgarrish
13:05:34 <mgarrish> scribe+
13:05:41 <wendyreid> Topic: Reading System Participation
13:06:16 <mgarrish> wendyreid: talked about this last week - I've reached out to a couple of people to fill in the survey
13:06:38 <mgarrish> wendyreid: I've reached out to some AC reps and at least one has indicated they will get someone to respond
13:06:53 <wendyreid> Topic: PR 2771 - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/pull/2771
13:07:12 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2762
13:08:11 <mgarrish> ivan: the reason this is started is because of me - there is a common thread in a number of issues e.g. in the dark mode thread
13:08:39 <mgarrish> ... this is about the relationship between the author and reading system - author spending time on css and rs invalidate what they do
13:09:04 <mgarrish> ... we use html5 and css so styling is better than epub2 had
13:09:49 <mgarrish> ... I opened a pull request to start to put in some hints for reading systems in both authoring and rs specs about the way they would/should/might handle author css
13:10:33 <mgarrish> ... the ship has sailed on changing reading systems - rses have taken the lead on rendering and control over things like margins, fonts, etc.
13:11:14 <mgarrish> ... the pull request is still open but in the authoring spec we have added some statements warning authors some of their styling will be overwritten
13:11:55 <mgarrish> ... and the hope is that at least some reading systems will publish their styling so that authors can find out what happens without experimentation
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13:12:09 <LaurentLM> present+
13:12:44 <mgarrish> ... the other aspect is to ask reading system devs to give the option to the user to have the author's styling dominate
13:13:15 <mgarrish> ... apple reader offers a choice for an original view but I haven't tested it too much
13:13:53 <mgarrish> ... I don't think we can do what I'd prefer to give whole power to the authors
13:14:14 <wendyreid> scribe+
13:14:36 <wendyreid> mgarrish: I think that mostly covers where we are, the disagreement is on how the affordance works, is it specced out well enough
13:14:46 <wendyreid> ... it's somewhat implemented, but is it repeatable?
13:15:02 <wendyreid> ... that is as far as we've gotten now, is it realistic and how does it work
13:15:11 <LaurentLM> q+
13:15:20 <Brady> q+
13:15:44 <mgarrish> ivan: we looked at both the css sections in both specs and the text came from earlier versions of epub and the meaning is not really clear
13:15:51 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:15:57 <mgarrish> ... the pr fixes some of those ambiguities
13:16:19 <mgarrish> LaurentLM: when reading systems add some css to the author it's because they have to normalize all the peculiarities
13:16:40 <mgarrish> ... it is difficult to remove the rs css - it will break the view if you take out too much
13:17:01 <mgarrish> ... most reading systems try to make a minimal changes as possible
13:17:16 <mgarrish> ... apple is not the only one to offer to go back to author styling
13:17:39 <mgarrish> ... thorium offers an option to get back to author css but still with the required optimizations done
13:17:47 <sueneu> q+
13:18:09 <mgarrish> ... having a public reading system css would be good but I expect only open source ones will do so
13:18:15 <wendyreid> ack Brady
13:18:50 <mgarrish> Brady: +1000 to laurent - the css reading systems add is to take the book from looking like garbage - without margins text would be a complete mess
13:18:52 <ivan> q+
13:19:09 <mgarrish> ... you keep adding css until the content looks good on your system
13:19:39 <mgarrish> ... the author doesn't know the problems of a device because the rs makes it look legible
13:19:57 <mgarrish> ... if we give the author complete control then the content will not render as they expect
13:20:43 <mgarrish> ... I do see where it does make sense like on fonts although even then publishers don't care too much and users tend to not want fonts changed from their preference
13:21:16 <mgarrish> ... publisher intent for font size is not always clear so google, for example, will figure out an optimal 100% size based on the device
13:21:57 <mgarrish> ... play books has a true original mode where you can see the content down to the page breaks and no one uses it because it's unreadable on their phone
13:22:15 <wendyreid> q+
13:22:18 <mgarrish> ... people who have found this feature have called support because they can't figure out how to get out the rendering
13:23:11 <mgarrish> ... adding a flag to get rid of the effort to make the content readable is strange - but if we really feel it is important as an optional feature okay as it is vague enough
13:23:13 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:23:41 <mgarrish> sueneu: I agree with brady about some aspects of author intent - author's don't always care about font
13:23:53 <mgarrish> ... margins and text size should be calculated to the device
13:24:15 <mgarrish> ... but sometimes authors want indented text, text to look like it's handwritten, especially in YA text
13:24:29 <mgarrish> ... sometimes they want a background to make it look like it was typed in a phone
13:24:40 <Brady> q+
13:24:57 <mgarrish> ... would it be possible to separate out the parts the reading system takes responsibility for and what authors can use css to customize
13:25:04 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:25:47 <mgarrish> ivan: this looks and sounds like a cultural difference - everything that Brady says could have been said by browser vendors to justify changing web sites
13:25:49 <DaleRogers> q+
13:25:53 <gautierchomel> q+
13:26:09 <mgarrish> ... no browser does this, outside perhaps of reading mode
13:26:29 <mgarrish> ... pagination is special to epub and I understand that part
13:26:43 <mgarrish> ... but why such a huge difference from the web for everything else - could be cultural
13:27:14 <LaurentLM> FXL is totallty different. The RS does not normalizes.
13:27:17 <mgarrish> ... how do fixed layouts get published if reading systems override their settings?
13:27:19 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:27:41 <mgarrish> wendyreid: reading systems pay far more attention to FXL than reflow
13:28:10 <mgarrish> ... I agree with most of what Brady said but kobo respects much more of the original rendering
13:28:23 <mgarrish> ... one of the big challenges is making content work for so many devices
13:28:53 <mgarrish> ... because publishers convert from print they think about print pagination and don't think about phone displays, for example
13:29:25 <mgarrish> ... publishers aren't always considering every device their content will render on
13:29:48 <mgarrish> ... but there must be a balance we can strike between publisher and rs
13:30:11 <mgarrish> ... fonts is a case where sometimes it doesn't matter but sometimes it does and you need to see the differences
13:30:29 <mgarrish> ... but how do we sort through all the properties to determine what is important and what is not
13:31:19 <mgarrish> ... maybe this should be best practice styling recommendations that we know work well
13:31:28 <wendyreid> ack Brady
13:31:30 <sueneu> q+
13:31:57 <mgarrish> Brady: I think font is one of the more important ones that get changed and why reading systems differ from browsers
13:32:19 <mgarrish> ... it is problematic to overwrite math fonts or handwritten fonts but we don't want to use fonts like roboto
13:32:57 <mgarrish> ... what play books does is parses all the font rules and inserts a better font before a generic one
13:33:19 <mgarrish> ... you can't do that with the css cascade so you have to edit the css to do that
13:33:59 <mgarrish> ... a browser is a user agent but a reading system has a user agent - if you don't intercept you can't make the fix
13:34:08 <LaurentLM> q+
13:34:38 <mgarrish> ... I have read books with different fonts and indents but we spent a lot of time making the outer margins work so the inner ones look good
13:35:42 <mgarrish> ... in terms of fixed layout we don't do anything - we don't let you change fonts or alter the styling
13:36:02 <mgarrish> ... we have an entire task force on fxl accessibility and it's still hard to read even for sighted people
13:36:42 <mgarrish> ... our culture is different because we have to show books created twenty years ago and make them look like they were created today
13:37:18 <mgarrish> ... you also don't go to the chrome store and buy a web site and be okay with it looking like crap
13:37:25 <sueneu> +1 Brady on business model differences between the web and the RS
13:37:39 <mgarrish> ... if your competitor's product looks better than you lose business
13:37:44 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:38:33 <mgarrish> DaleRogers: I know content creators might create epubs with pages or indesign and never get under the hood to see the css
13:39:00 <mgarrish> ... so I understand what brady is saying about having to deal with content that was created by these programs from years ago
13:39:26 <mgarrish> ... the validator will tell me if it's conforming but I don't know all of what it checks
13:39:51 <mgarrish> ... but how does the author know what is the best practice for different reading systems - we follow the spec and hope for the best
13:40:12 <mgarrish> ... is there a css validator and checks if it will be problematic with different reading systems?
13:40:26 <mgarrish> s/and checks/that checks/
13:41:14 <mgarrish> ... I wonder if it would be helpful if we knew ahead of time how reading systems work and what css will work - is that a possibility?
13:41:16 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:41:45 <mgarrish> gautierchomel: ebooks are not updated as often as web sites - it is easier to update a web site
13:41:55 <mgarrish> ... as a publisher I want my css to be as simple as possible
13:42:13 <mgarrish> ... on the web designers have media queries to target different displays
13:42:22 <mgarrish> ... not sure I want to have to do that for reading systems
13:42:43 <mgarrish> ... I have not heard any complaints about this topic from french publishers but I will ask them
13:43:04 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:43:05 <mgarrish> ... we need more industry voices in this group to understand whether this is an individual or industry issue
13:43:46 <gautierchomel> q+
13:43:53 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:43:55 <mgarrish> sueneu: I'm interested in whether this is an industry issue - reading systems seem to have taken the issue in stride - more voices would be better
13:44:13 <mgarrish> LaurentLM: we should have some authoring recommendations like choosing fonts wisely
13:44:39 <sueneu> +1 Laurent
13:44:39 <mgarrish> ... authors also don't follow some rules to make epubs - make we need more rules in the spec or a supplemental document
13:44:42 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:44:51 <Brady> q+
13:44:52 <gautierchomel> https://readium.org/css/docs/
13:44:59 <mgarrish> gautierchomel: adding a link to the readium css
13:45:17 <wendyreid> q+
13:45:43 <mgarrish> ... ten years ago it was more problematic but now if I don't do strange things the display is good
13:45:49 <sueneu> q+
13:46:18 <wendyreid> ack Brady
13:46:19 <mgarrish> ... I don't even update books yearly - I want my content to display well for years to come
13:46:46 <mgarrish> Brady: it's great that readium publishes this but how many authors go through the css?
13:47:01 <mgarrish> ... if we find problems we typically go back to the publisher and request that they fix it
13:47:42 <mgarrish> ... the problem is they often come back and say it works on ibooks and then we have to recreate someone else's display to make the author content look right
13:47:50 <LaurentLM> q+
13:48:17 <mgarrish> ... if I still worked at play books it would have fallen on me to publish the css but would anyone have looked or cared?
13:48:32 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:48:41 <mgarrish> ... the response will likely remain it works elsewhere to make it work - but I might be pessimistic
13:48:45 <DaleRogers> q+
13:49:07 <mgarrish> wendyreid: I've had the same experience as brady - but as gauthier said things have gotten better
13:49:26 <mgarrish> ... books made twenty years ago were really poor quality but today they are quite good
13:49:51 <mgarrish> ... if we tell people what to do now they may already have figured these things out
13:50:28 <ivan> q+ to where we go from here?
13:50:31 <mgarrish> ... it would be great if authoring tools could warn users about display choices that are really going to make a mess
13:50:41 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:50:47 <mgarrish> ... but we're not quite there and that may be where best practices come in
13:51:28 <mgarrish> sueneu: agree with directing tool makers to the reading system css than authors
13:52:05 <mgarrish> ... flightdeck is an online tool you subscribe to monthly and they will tell you if a book will work
13:52:15 <sueneu> https://ebookflightdeck.com/
13:52:20 <mgarrish> ... they have a supplier-compliant matrix for checking
13:52:24 <wendyreid> ack LaurentLM
13:52:47 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:52:49 <mgarrish> LaurentLM: some publishers do test with thorium css and not just ibooks
13:53:33 <mgarrish> DaleRogers: I'm wondering if authors did not include css and did everything in markup would that show up fine or do reading systems expect some css?
13:54:20 <mgarrish> wendyreid: we generally expect at least some css but reading systems will handle a book without any - some things like asides will need styling to differentiate
13:54:32 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:54:32 <Zakim> ivan, you wanted to where we go from here?
13:54:37 <mgarrish> Brady: if you look back at books from 20 years ago they didn't have much css and they display fine
13:54:46 <mgarrish> ivan: so where do we go from here?
13:55:17 <mgarrish> ... I think matt and I are at the last round of discussion with the PR
13:55:29 <mgarrish> ... I don't think we should merge it as-is but get more people to look at it
13:55:49 <mgarrish> ... it is much better than it used to be but in light of the discussion today we should get more review
13:56:14 <mgarrish> ... to respond to gauthier I was wondering if media queries would cover all the cases we are concerned about
13:56:52 <mgarrish> ... maybe we should discuss with the css people in Kobe whether there are media queries that are reading system specific
13:57:00 <Brady> q+
13:57:03 <wendyreid> ack Brady
13:57:17 <mgarrish> Brady: the biggest thing missing is the knowledge of a page and from media queries is page size
13:57:37 <mgarrish> ... it's probably not solvable from the css side because they have pages but no one uses them
13:58:12 <mgarrish> wendyreid: when I asked about colour issues they directed me to their issue tracker - maybe we could ask about this as they have more pull with browsers
13:58:41 <mgarrish> ... in terms of next steps the PR is not the direction we want to take
13:58:57 <mgarrish> ... the text improvements are okay but not recommendations
13:59:06 <mgarrish> ivan: there are no new normative requirements in the text
13:59:33 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2762
13:59:36 <mgarrish> wendyreid: people can use the issue to discuss further
13:59:59 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:00:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
14:59:58 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:59:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items