14:00:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pm-ann
14:00:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-pm-ann-irc
14:00:31 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:00:32 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), ivan
14:00:59 <ivan> meeting: PM WG Annotation Task Force telco
14:01:08 <ivan> chair: LaurentLM
14:01:12 <ivan> present+
14:01:19 <ivan> present+ LaurentLM
14:01:34 <ivan> present+ ajellinek
14:01:37 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pm-ann
14:02:18 <DaleRogers> DaleRogers has joined #pm-ann
14:02:52 <Brady> Brady has joined #pm-ann
14:03:06 <Brady> present+
14:03:45 <LaurentLM> we'll start in when Ivan is back
14:04:28 <ivan> present+ gautierchomel
14:04:37 <ivan> present+ dalerogers
14:07:12 <gautierchomel> scribe+
14:07:25 <LaurentLM> Use Cases and Requirements: https://w3c.github.io/epub-specs/wg-notes/annotations-ucr/
14:07:36 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: welcoming Abe from Berkeley university, working with Zotero.
14:07:39 <ivan> agenda: https://www.w3.org/mid/2E290787-9BC5-433F-8C48-C93CF322D85D@edrlab.org
14:10:15 <ivan> present+ jim_saiya
14:10:30 <ivan> q+
14:10:49 <ivan> q-
14:10:57 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: We listed that we can anotate a text, an image and the part of an image
14:11:12 <gautierchomel> ivan: shall we add video?
14:11:17 <gautierchomel> ivan: and audio?
14:12:31 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: that mean we have to tackle the time issue. I suggest to add audio only because video players will be more complex to get into to extract an exact position.
14:13:03 <gautierchomel> q+
14:13:14 <Brady> scribe+
14:13:33 <Brady> gautierchomel: I recently had an interaction on Vimeo where I added comment
14:13:56 <Brady> ... The interface made it easy to annotate a timestamp in the video
14:14:15 <Brady> ... But I agree let us stick  with audio only
14:15:14 <DaleRogers> q+
14:15:20 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: the part of an image is interesting. Complex to do for ceveloppers because that mean we have to draw.
14:15:38 <Brady> ack gautierchomel
14:15:45 <Brady> ack DaleRogers
14:16:30 <ivan> q+
14:16:48 <ivan> q-
14:17:29 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: formating annotations sounds a wish from users. Not sure how wide it is implemented yet.
14:17:43 <ivan> q+
14:18:48 <gautierchomel> ajellinek: we support that in zotero, we store annotations as HTML. standardising that across editor may be tricky. Not all editors accept HTML. Often we see subsets.
14:19:33 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: maybe the note part can have a `content type` like HTML, MarkDown or PlainText, to drive the industry while letting space for flexibility.
14:19:36 <ivan> q-
14:20:53 <ivan> q+
14:21:01 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: there are anotations and also bookmarks that need to be interoperable. That's part of the use case document too.
14:21:02 <Brady> ack ivan
14:21:58 <gautierchomel> ivan: a general remark, what can be anotated, what can be boorkmak? Can i anotate an anotation, a footote? are there limitations to consider?
14:22:46 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: this is not tracked yet. what does the group think about this?
14:22:49 <gautierchomel> q+
14:22:59 <Brady> ack gautierchomel
14:23:17 <Brady> gautierchomel: I think it is useful, but recognize it may add complexity
14:23:33 <Brady> ... there is a use case for annotating other annotations and footnotes
14:24:07 <gautierchomel> s/footote/footnote/
14:24:30 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: footnote can come with difficulties to locate if they are outside the HTML.
14:24:43 <ivan> q+
14:25:08 <gautierchomel> ajellinek: we don't support annotating annotations,
14:25:10 <gautierchomel> q+
14:25:13 <ivan> q-
14:25:20 <gautierchomel> ajellinek: but it is a reasonable use case
14:26:06 <gautierchomel> ivan: it is also related to where the anotation is stored. When coming to technical, we may not be able to implement.
14:27:09 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: i see a way if we consider it a thread of annotations instead of anotating anotations.
14:27:43 <gautierchomel> ivan: it's diferent, there are usecase where i want to select a part of an anotation to anotate.
14:27:45 <gautierchomel> q-
14:29:11 <LaurentLM> q?
14:29:27 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: exporting & importing is a big part too. We have different scenarios here, from publishing a book with anotations to users sharing anotations, including in a classroom context.
14:30:51 <ivan> q+
14:31:32 <gautierchomel> DaleRogers: in the past authors responded books by publishing a new book, an article or a document. This technology may bring new usecase as responding to an ebook with an annotation.
14:33:03 <gautierchomel> ivan: the usecase I see is more in scholar or academic context, in a teacher to student relation or researcher communities.
14:34:21 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: the implication of considering those usecase is that we'll study how to standardise. We've hear about a known US author who solds annotated book and did that with popup because there was not standardised way.
14:35:30 <gautierchomel> q+
14:36:38 <Brady> ack ivan
14:36:42 <Brady> ack gautierchomel
14:37:40 <Brady> gautierchomel:  For annotation in social media, sharing annotations in a social media context
14:38:01 <Brady> LaurentLM: I am an end user for this?
14:38:17 <Brady> gautierchomel: Yes, I am in a book club, and I am sharing with other people in the club
14:38:35 <Brady> ... I could try to monetize that and sell annotations at 1 euro per book
14:38:44 <Brady> LaurentLM: Can you write the text for that?
14:38:45 <ivan> +1 to gautierchomel
14:38:50 <Brady> gautierchomel: yes, I will do that
14:40:15 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: section 5 is about syncronizing.
14:41:22 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: that mean among devices, among readers, among versions of ebooks.
14:43:30 <DaleRogers> q+
14:44:11 <gautierchomel> ivan: i anotate the book i purchased, if i share with another person, they probably want to make sure they can diferenciate theyre annotations from mine. Identification is a use case to add here.
14:44:51 <gautierchomel> q+
14:45:30 <ivan> q+
14:45:41 <Brady> ack DaleRogers
14:45:50 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: among device is easy, it means I stand in my ecosytem, identification is easy. While sharing among users comes with identification complexities.
14:47:07 <gautierchomel> DaleRogers: i see it similar to customer support id tickets.
14:48:05 <Brady> ack gautierchomel
14:48:06 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: unique identifier to ebooks is not suficienrtly used
14:48:28 <Brady> gautierchomel: Among device could also be among vendors
14:48:48 <Brady> ... so I read from one vendor, added annotations, now I want to use a new app
14:49:03 <Brady> ... so I have changed the ecosystem, and I should be able to do that
14:49:21 <Brady> LaurentLM: So I can move annotations between reading systems
14:49:44 <Brady> gautierchomel: I am not confortable with the distinction between secions 4 & 5
14:50:03 <Brady> LaurentLM: The big difference is the protocol
14:50:22 <Brady> ... In the first, it is just files, in the second there has to be some sort of protocol
14:50:32 <Brady> gautierchomel: But many use case are in both
14:51:20 <Brady> ... So for a publisher providing them, they could be by file or protocol
14:51:20 <LaurentLM> q?
14:51:28 <Brady> ack ivan
14:52:45 <gautierchomel> ivan: back to the identification part, 5.1 is my ebook; 5.2 is other people ebooks. I have to refer to the book instead of my ebook.
14:53:04 <Brady> gautierchomel: I think it lives in both
14:54:42 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: it's true but usecases are to make sure we do not forget anything. Then file sharing and protocol may be used for all usecases.
14:55:22 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: last point is how to make sure we survive versions. It's a real burden here.
14:55:56 <gautierchomel> ajellinek: we met the problem and still looking how to solve it.
14:56:37 <LaurentLM> Requirements for locators  https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2763
14:56:40 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: with the additions discussed today, I think we can start the requirement. An issue is open.
14:57:15 <gautierchomel> LaurentLM: we have no more time to discuss that today, I invite you to check and commenbt the issue.
14:57:40 <gautierchomel> s/commenbt/comment/
14:58:49 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-pm-ann-minutes.html ivan
14:59:42 <ivan> rrsagent, bye
14:59:42 <RRSAgent> I see no action items