16:55:25 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:55:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-aria-irc
16:55:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:55:31 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:55:31 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:55:32 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:55:32 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5a155237-d896-464b-9c5f-6dd1654293ae/20250904T130000/
16:55:32 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:55:32 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-08-21+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues
16:55:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/bdf8wh9w
16:55:36 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:55:38 <agendabot> agenda+ -> TPAC Agenda https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate
16:55:41 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Editorial: Add <header> (sectionheader) and <footer> (sectionfooter) html-aam mappings https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2543
16:55:44 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarify relationship between aria-hidden and aria-owns https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1839
16:55:47 <agendabot> agenda+ -> feat: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805
16:59:31 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:01:22 <filippo-zorzi> filippo-zorzi has joined #aria
17:01:34 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:01:36 <smockle> present+
17:01:37 <filippo-zorzi> present+
17:01:40 <aardrian> present+
17:01:44 <Brett> Brett has joined #aria
17:03:24 <katez> katez has joined #aria
17:03:29 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:03:32 <sarah> present+
17:03:36 <katez> present+
17:03:54 <aardrian> scribe aardrian
17:04:02 <aardrian> scribe: aardrian
17:04:25 <Jem> Jem has joined #aria
17:05:01 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:05:02 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:05:02 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New PR Triage https://github.com/search?q=is%3Aopen+is%3Apr+created:%3E=2025-08-21+repo:w3c/aria&type=Issues -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:05:03 <Jem> present+
17:05:04 <pkra> present+
17:05:09 <Jacques> Jacques has joined #aria
17:05:32 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:05:32 <scott> scott has joined #aria
17:05:36 <front-endian-jane> front-endian-jane has joined #aria
17:05:45 <aardrian> jamesn: Skipping the first as editorial
17:06:00 <aardrian> jamesn: Skipping the second as editorial
17:06:27 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:06:30 <aardrian> jamesn: can @pkra look at this and push it if ready? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2619
17:06:30 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:06:40 <scott> present+
17:06:48 <Jacques> present+
17:06:48 <aardrian> jamesn: sounds editorial https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2618
17:06:55 <aardrian> rahim: it is
17:07:01 <Adam_Page> present+
17:07:04 <aardrian> jamesn: Can you mark it as editorial?
17:07:17 <front-endian-jane> front-endian-jane has joined #aria
17:07:23 <front-endian-jane> present+
17:07:29 <aardrian> pkra: You can ignore my suggestion. We can do it some other time as a new issue.
17:07:54 <aardrian> rahim: Is the issue the single string, literal style? Want to be consistent with specs.
17:08:19 <aardrian> jamesn: I think `code` is what we normally use.
17:08:37 <aardrian> scott: This was introduced in Web Apps WG as recommended at the time.
17:08:58 <aardrian> scott: Needed `code` when formatting wouldn't work otherwise. So the specs are riddled with backticks as a result.
17:09:34 <aardrian> jcraig: It's not rendered that way. Since it's a new ReSpec thing, keep the backticks and replaces as we go.
17:09:47 <aardrian> jamesn: Is everyone ok with this? Brian?
17:09:58 <aardrian> bryang: Yup.
17:10:10 <Jem7> Jem7 has joined #aria
17:10:13 <aardrian> jamesn: We can make an editorial task for later.
17:10:28 <aardrian> jamesn: next is https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2617
17:10:28 <Rahim> present+
17:11:00 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:11:05 <aardrian> scott: The gist is the interest in an attribute.
17:11:18 <aardrian> scott: based on work from about a year ago to get this through OpenUI.
17:11:31 <aardrian> scott: Aaron is doing his best to copy the explainer.
17:11:38 <aardrian> jamesn: Do we need to agenda it?
17:11:46 <aardrian> scott: I'm all for talking about it, but timing.
17:12:10 <aardrian> jamesn: We'll take it offline. Anyone else want to review?
17:12:41 <aardrian> keithamus: I'll do it.
17:13:01 <pkra> agenda?
17:13:30 <Jem> present+ kiethamus
17:13:37 <aardrian> front-endian-jane: Me too.
17:14:03 <aardrian> jamesn: You should learn autocomplete, Adrian.
17:14:24 <aardrian> james: Last one is https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2606
17:14:34 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:14:45 <aardrian> Adam_Page: It has two reviews. It's in accName.
17:14:47 <Matt_King> present+
17:14:54 <aardrian> james: Is it ready to merge?
17:15:12 <aardrian> Adam_Page: It has tests, so ready to go.
17:15:22 <aardrian> jamesn: Bryan or Melanie, can you merge this.
17:15:27 <aardrian> zakim nex item
17:15:31 <aardrian> zakim nexy item
17:15:37 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:15:37 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/bdf8wh9w -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:55 <Jem> agenda?
17:16:57 <jamesn> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/591
17:17:13 <aardrian> jamesn: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2622 is editorial as is https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2621
17:17:38 <aardrian> jamesn: Rahim says JAWS is only one to announce title on `abbr`: https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/591
17:17:59 <aardrian> Rahim: SHould title contribute to accName? Can be verbose, but is not common experience.
17:18:02 <scott> q+
17:18:07 <aardrian> Rahim: Should title map to accDesc?
17:18:54 <Jem> we have a ARIA-APG github issue for abbr, https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3319
17:18:59 <aardrian> jcraig: Every time there is a title, the browser should speak the title and that would be tedious.
17:19:09 <aardrian> jcraig: I pushed back on that.
17:19:22 <aardrian> jamesn: doesn't accName say it should use child content?
17:19:35 <Jem> q?
17:19:35 <jamesn> ack scott
17:19:36 <aardrian> q+
17:20:02 <aardrian> scott: This is under text-level element accName computation. Probably just needs to be clarified.
17:20:15 <aardrian> scott: Falls under title fallback.
17:20:31 <aardrian> scott: Touches on what I've brought up before for when does accName mean accName versus content?
17:20:41 <aardrian> scott: It's just the content. We've confused this.
17:21:00 <pkra> => https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2569
17:21:15 <jamesn> q+
17:21:21 <aardrian> scott: The `title` attribute was called out in a comment. JAWS has a setting to allow this, but probably doesn't belong in accName at all.
17:21:30 <aardrian> scott: should be probably mapped to something else.
17:21:47 <Stefan> Stefan has joined #aria
17:21:50 <aardrian> scott: this is unique to JAWS
17:22:00 <aardrian> jcraig: VO does. It's mapped to help.
17:22:10 <aardrian> scott: Basing this off my last testing pass.
17:22:17 <Stefan> present+
17:22:18 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:22:23 <jamesn> q-
17:23:04 <aardrian> aardrian: I've tracked support, and it's variable. Not accName IMO
17:23:16 <aardrian> jamesn: Do we need more discussion or a PR?
17:23:26 <aardrian> Rahim: I'll do it.
17:23:41 <aardrian> jcraig: It seems we've come to agreement it shouldn't be accName.
17:23:58 <aardrian> jcraig: But there are platform mappings that are needed for HTML AAM
17:24:17 <Jem> agenda?
17:24:31 <aardrian> jamesn: next up is https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2613
17:24:38 <aardrian> scott: I came here specifically for this issue.
17:25:06 <aardrian> scott: Lots of back and forth. When we created sectionheader|footer, we wanted them to be similar to group.
17:25:35 <aardrian> scott: Did not want to introduce these new roles and be too verbose. Announcing themselves everywhere when they were otherwise silent.
17:25:50 <aardrian> scott: Introduced because of a use case of naming a header/footer, that's how they became landmarks.
17:26:03 <aardrian> scott: But then people named them in other contexts, naming generic elements.
17:26:28 <aardrian> scott: This was to allow authors to use these as HTML intended and provide a meaningful role.
17:26:48 <aardrian> scott: There seems to be confusion for why they're exposed with only an accName — not accurate.
17:27:15 <aardrian> scott: There was never an expectation authors should start naming them to expose them.
17:27:25 <aardrian> scott; But if authors _do_ name them, they'll be exposed.
17:27:43 <Daniel> present+
17:27:54 <aardrian> aardrian: Papering over a gap authors perceived in spec?
17:28:12 <aardrian> scott: That and handling things that weren't defined outside of specific contexts.
17:28:35 <aardrian> scott: Similar to groups and fieldsets — announced but not named.
17:28:45 <aardrian> jamesn: What needs to happen to move this PR forward?
17:28:56 <aardrian> pkra: Isn't the question what to do with the issue?
17:29:04 <pkra> q?
17:29:12 <Jem> q+
17:29:13 <aardrian> jamesn: I jumped ahead to the related PR.
17:29:31 <aardrian> scott: I updated a PR to align and correct for original spec intent.
17:29:50 <aardrian> scott: Also a response to giacomo's issue about naming them to expose the role.
17:29:56 <jamesn> ack Jem
17:30:09 <pkra> q+
17:30:20 <aardrian> jem: Usually a header landmark is a random or section header.
17:30:32 <aardrian> jem: YOu can have a heading structure within it.
17:30:47 <aardrian> jem: Why should it be mapping to section header versus just using headings?
17:31:26 <aardrian> Matt_King: I think you're asking an authoring choice. Why would they do this versus that. Feels outside scope.
17:31:45 <aardrian> jem: Scott's intention was an alternate header, but authors can use headings.
17:31:52 <aardrian> jamesn: The answer is HTML allows it.
17:32:01 <jamesn> ack pkra
17:32:02 <Matt_King> q+
17:32:06 <aardrian> pkra: And authors slapped names on them.
17:32:25 <aardrian> pkra: I think scott answered giacomo's question, so let giacomo answer it.
17:32:40 <aardrian> jamesn: With scott having to leave I wanted to jump to the PR.
17:33:07 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: I understand the intent. I'm fine with it. I'd expect an author using footer would use a section.
17:33:19 <Matt_King> q-
17:33:22 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: I would expect it to be communicated as a footer section.
17:33:42 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: Still not sure this should be exposed by AT as a grouping element.
17:33:48 <pkra> q+
17:34:22 <aardrian> jem: I like the comment that a header/footer in a section means something. I find the overall thing confusing, but understand authors will use it.
17:34:44 <aardrian> jamesn: Authors are using this where we wouldn't expect them, so exposing them everywhere would be a poor experience.
17:35:12 <aardrian> Matt_King: Exactly. Authors use lots of markups with no consideration for accessibility, though it has a side effect of verbosity.
17:35:23 <aardrian> Matt_King: We should assume an accessibility intent.
17:35:25 <pkra> q-
17:35:36 <aardrian> Matt_King: They might think adding the name could have some intent.
17:35:47 <aardrian> jamesn: Moving on...
17:35:52 <Jem> agenda?
17:36:00 <aardrian> pkra: Skip https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2612
17:36:12 <aardrian> jamesn: Next is https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2611
17:36:24 <aardrian> pkra: Came out of discussions and WebKit / APple statements.
17:36:42 <aardrian> pkra: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2604 came out of discussion in prior meeting.
17:36:45 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:36:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:37:01 <aardrian> jamesn: ANything we need to look at jcraig?
17:37:17 <aardrian> jcraig: I dont' think so, haven't reviewed.
17:37:31 <aardrian> rahim: I think the array initialization is ready to merge.
17:37:39 <aardrian> Adam_Page: I'll review.
17:37:56 <aardrian> Adam_Page: James, should that pseudo content marker test be tentative?
17:38:31 <aardrian> jcraig: Good question. Don't know. Fine as tentative.
17:38:49 <aardrian> jcraig: If the results are fine,e veryone's mapping, and it aligns with the spect...
17:38:57 <aardrian> Adam_Page: ONly Firefox right now
17:39:07 <aardrian> jcraig: Then tentative and check bug trackers.
17:39:15 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:39:15 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> TPAC Agenda https://tinyurl.com/ariaf2fcandidate -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:39:34 <aardrian> jamesn: Need agenda items for TPAC. This is the old list of F2F candidates.
17:39:43 <aardrian> jamesn: Some may not be relevant.
17:39:58 <aardrian> jamesn: Start adding stuff. Add F2F Candidate label.
17:40:09 <aardrian> jamesn: This is driven by the groups, not chairs.
17:40:18 <aardrian> jamesn: Without topics, it won't be effective.
17:40:41 <aardrian> jamesn: Yes, we can enjoy beef. But ideally do some work.
17:40:55 <aardrian> jem: There is a WhatsApp group if it's your first visit.
17:41:03 <aardrian> jamesn: Ask Jemma for help!
17:41:17 <aardrian> jcraig: There are overlapping groups. She meant the general accessibility group.
17:41:36 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:41:36 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Editorial: Add <header> (sectionheader) and <footer> (sectionfooter) html-aam mappings https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2543 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:41:53 <aardrian> jamesn: We kinda talked about this already.
17:42:07 <aardrian> jamesn: Rahim owns this. What do we need to do to progress it?
17:42:27 <aardrian> Rahim: Request to Giacomo and you to move ahead.
17:42:28 <Jem7> agenda?
17:42:33 <aardrian> jamesn: I'm fine with it.
17:42:40 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: I'm fine with it.
17:42:47 <aardrian> Rahim: I'll ask scott to look.
17:42:51 <aardrian> Rahim: Ready to land
17:42:53 <Daniel> q+
17:43:14 <aardrian> Daniel: I think this PR has changed to graphics AAM?
17:43:31 <aardrian> Rahim: No, they're Prettier extra comments. Is there more to do?
17:43:43 <aardrian> Daniel: Take out the main graphics.
17:43:51 <aardrian> Rahim: I'll remove those.
17:44:02 <aardrian> pkra: You might have to rebase.
17:44:26 <jamesn> ack Daniel
17:44:36 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:44:36 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> Clarify relationship between aria-hidden and aria-owns https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1839 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:44:55 <aardrian> james: This is ancient.
17:45:24 <aardrian> Adam_Page: It's an old one. Consensus 3 years ago was to enshrine what Chrome and Firefox were already doing.
17:45:56 <aardrian> Adam_Page: That is the spec change. It has remained unchanged in 3 years, until introducing accessibility child / ancestor language, but updated since then.
17:46:10 <aardrian> Adam_Page: I also wrote a companion WPT test. 2 browsers have bugs.
17:46:22 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Not sure root cause nor how they relate to core of the change.
17:46:34 <aardrian> jamesn: Do we need bugs against browsers?
17:46:39 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Eventually.
17:46:46 <aardrian> Adam_Page: When WPT is published.
17:46:54 <aardrian> jamesn: Is that the next step to get this moving?
17:47:31 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Scott found a test case after `aria-owns` resolved, there was a heading element getting its name from its content before being displaced by `aria-owns`.
17:48:11 <aardrian> Adam_Page: So there was a named element devoid of contents. Not sure there is a capability to write any tests in WPT that can confirm if element has been moved in the tree.
17:48:18 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Can only test computed name.
17:48:22 <aardrian> jcraig: Correct.
17:48:39 <aardrian> Adam_Page: That doesn't need to be a blocker. Interesting quirk, tho.
17:48:49 <aardrian> Adam_Page: Added additional test case from that feedback.
17:49:15 <aardrian> jamesn: jcraig could you review this?
17:49:34 <aardrian> jamesn: Before we merge it, we need browser implementations.
17:49:40 <aardrian> Adam_Page: They're there, but with bugs.
17:50:16 <aardrian> Adam_Page: This not a super-essential feature. `aria-owns` and `aria-hidden` are a rare mix.
17:50:41 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:50:56 <aardrian> zakim, close item
17:50:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close item', aardrian
17:51:02 <smockle> https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/2577
17:51:07 <aardrian> zakim, close this item
17:51:07 <Zakim> agendum 6 closed
17:51:08 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:51:08 <Zakim> 7. -> feat: aria-actions addition to the ARIA spec https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1805 [from agendabot]
17:51:57 <aardrian> clay: What's up with `ariaNOtify`?
17:52:13 <aardrian> zakim, topic: ariaNotify
17:52:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'topic: ariaNotify', aardrian
17:52:19 <aardrian> topic: ariaNotify
17:52:56 <aardrian> Jacques: The thing previously blocking us from shipping in Edge was positive feedback from this group.
17:52:56 <Jem7> s/topic/Topic/
17:53:17 <aardrian> Jacques: We got that, so we're waiting for another browser vendor.
17:53:37 <aardrian> jcraig: The position from other vendors got filled out. It's down to the nits now.
17:54:05 <aardrian> Jacques: The V2 has open questions that need more clarity. ANd it needs SR support, so not shipping soon.
17:54:18 <aardrian> jamesn: Apple can't tell us anything for timelines.
17:54:24 <aardrian> jcraig: Not actively working on it.
17:54:38 <aardrian> keithamus: WOuld love to work on it, can't promise timelines.
17:54:49 <aardrian> jamesn: THerefore not actively worked on by Gecko.
17:55:07 <aardrian> jcraig: This is whittled down to what can be implemented today by existing features.
17:55:24 <aardrian> jcraig: The downstream AT and API changes are blocking V2 features.
17:55:32 <aardrian> jamesn: But we would love to get this into the spec.
17:55:46 <aardrian> Jacques: Am I right in thinking it's getting those commitments?
17:55:52 <Daniel> q+
17:56:04 <aardrian> jcraig: SOme tags we can add for awaiting implementation.
17:56:29 <aardrian> jamesn: The spec can note it's only in some browsers, but this is a bigger feature with positive statements, so the spec can move forward.
17:56:47 <aardrian> jamesn: That's a chair discussion we need to have. Ways of stating this editorially.
17:56:57 <aardrian> jamesn: Maybe a TPAC discussion.
17:57:28 <aardrian> Daniel: We would put this in the spec at the moment with Chromium and another engine. We could go to CR.
17:57:37 <aardrian> jamesn: Unless we're in permanent CR.
17:57:45 <aardrian> Daniel: Yeah, but we can take a snapshot.
17:57:55 <aardrian> jamesn: We need to persuade someone else to implement.
17:58:13 <aardrian> keithamus: If someone wants to have a go at adding it to FIrefox, I'm happy to pair with them.
17:58:29 <aardrian> zakim, end meeting
17:58:29 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been smockle, filippo-zorzi, aardrian, sarah, katez, Jem, pkra, giacomo-petri, scott, Jacques, Adam_Page, front-endian-jane, Rahim, keithamus,
17:58:32 <Zakim> ... kiethamus, Matt_King, Stefan, Daniel, Francis_Storr
17:58:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:58:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:58:41 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:58:41 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:54:05 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria
23:06:34 <ChrisCuellar> ChrisCuellar has joined #aria