14:02:41 RRSAgent has joined #act-r 14:02:45 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-irc 14:02:45 RRSAgent, make logs Public 14:02:46 Meeting: ACT Rules Community Group Teleconference 14:02:52 present+ 14:02:56 Helen has joined #act-r 14:02:59 present+ 14:03:03 present+ 14:03:37 Sage has joined #act-r 14:03:43 present+ 14:04:45 Kathy has joined #act-r 14:05:01 Agenda+ ACT stand-up 14:05:01 Agenda+ [bc4a75] ARIA required owned elements - Passed Example 6 is not accurate and should fail - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2247 14:05:01 Agenda+ Passed Example 3 in Headers attribute specified on a cell refers to cells in the same table element [a25f45] should be edited/removed - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2233 14:05:03 Agenda+ [NEW RULES] - Define author's responsibility when presentational roles conflict arises #2195 - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2195 14:05:05 Agenda+ [NEW RULE] - ARIA required accessible names - aria-required-accessible-name-gp8n89 - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2190 14:05:57 present+ 14:06:00 scribe+ 14:07:06 zakim, take up next 14:07:06 agendum 1 -- ACT stand-up -- taken up [from CarlosD] 14:08:07 Giacomo: I have looked at some PRs and updated issues - but not much progress 14:08:30 todd has joined #act-r 14:08:37 present+ 14:08:45 Kathy: I reopened a PR for the summary element rule approval for the WG to review 14:09:20 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2258 14:09:27 ... and it relates to an issue Giacomo raised about empty headings and I don't know how to proceed 14:10:13 Helen: It has been discussed in the TF meetings 14:10:41 Kathy: We have a note in the issue to address the screen readers as an accessibility support note 14:11:10 ... that would be nice to get Giacomo's thoughts so we can get the rule reviewed 14:11:15 Shunguo has joined #act-r 14:11:57 Kathy: It is assigned to Sage 14:12:24 Sage: I think it relates to a PR I was working on? But I will look into it 14:14:10 Giacomo: I think when you have an empty heading, Chrome is exposing the element but JAWS and NVDA ignore it doesn't mean the heading is not exposed? So how can we say 2.4.6 is not failing as it is exposed and the screen readers might do the same? 14:14:40 ... unless we have documentation saying they should be ignored how can we assume this is the case? 14:15:01 ... I think it is a violation regardless. 14:15:45 Carlos: I think Wilco could not replicate the issue? 14:16:10 ... so I don't know if anyone else could replicate it? Daniel could. 14:18:06 Kathy: We had a long discussion and it is not a heading on the page, as not clear if it applies to visual and programmatic headings - please add a comment. 14:18:16 Carlos: Wait a bit Sage! 14:19:13 Shunguo: This is addressed by ARIA too as the heading must be populated 14:19:35 Giacomo: Who defines what a heading is? 14:19:59 ... VoiceOver does expose the heading? 14:20:35 Carlos: Just because one does expose it doesn't make it a heading either? 14:21:00 ... add a comment please Giacomo, thanks everyone! 14:21:25 Sage: I haven't done anything in the interim but I did some work on PR 2345 14:22:12 Shunguo: I reviewed the PR for supported attributes, and 3 of our rules proposed with the keyboard trap 14:23:04 ... the definition is not clear what is not the standard keyboard commands as hard to work this definition out 14:23:56 Todd: I have not had much time 14:24:25 Carlos: I have attended meetings 14:26:17 Helen: I attended a meeting on how the W3C are planning to improve the CG experience and website 14:26:20 zakim, take up next 14:26:20 agendum 2 -- [bc4a75] ARIA required owned elements - Passed Example 6 is not accurate and should fail - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2247 -- taken up 14:26:23 ... [from CarlosD] 14:27:01 Carlos: We have ongoing work on this issue from Jan that you raised Giacomo 14:27:17 ... the AG are discussing it more. 14:28:03 Giacomo: Yes we can remove the "Agenda" label, I created it to remind me to update the specs and it is a passed example that will pass in the future. 14:28:44 ... it took a bit of time to work it out but it is sorted by the ARIA WG. 14:29:03 Carlos: mutters as he does the above 14:29:06 zakim, take up next 14:29:06 agendum 3 -- Passed Example 3 in Headers attribute specified on a cell refers to cells in the same table element [a25f45] should be edited/removed - 14:29:08 ... https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/issues/2233 -- taken up [from CarlosD] 14:29:33 Carlos: This is one of yours again Giacomo? 14:30:08 Giacomo: The "Agenda" item label can be removed 14:30:11 zakim, take up next 14:30:11 agendum 4 -- [NEW RULES] - Define author's responsibility when presentational roles conflict arises #2195 - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2195 -- taken up 14:30:13 ... [from CarlosD] 14:30:41 Carlos: This was last discussed when? 14:30:52 Giacomo: July 2024!!! 14:31:11 Carlos: What can we discuss here? 14:31:49 Giacomo: Wilco raised some concerns about repetitive rules 14:32:14 Carlos: We did discuss this a few meetings ago 14:32:23 https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2190#issuecomment-3164924410 14:34:37 Giacomo: This cares about the role set by the user agent and there are 2 examples I listed like the button with the link inside, and the list item that are not covered in our rules 14:35:46 ... it is similar to accessible name one but more specific to the presentational rules conflict resolution 14:36:28 Carlos: Please repeat what you did for the accessible name one as it helped Wilco understand the reasoning 14:38:00 Giacomo: It is harder to understand the rules if we split the semantic elements as harder to follow the logic and more ambiguous 14:38:37 Carlos: The one getting Wilco concerned is the element marked as decorative 14:39:13 ... as it is explicit rule of presentation or an image with an empty alt with no explicit rule. 14:39:59 Giacomo: The examples I gave do not have presentational roles 14:41:46 ... I tried the second example again and it is not exposed in Chrome but it causes a failure as an author violation due to the list items in the children 14:42:01 Carlos: Yes that is true 14:42:31 ... is there anything in the current rule that catches ones this doesn't catch? 14:42:51 ... Like the images with an empty alt. 14:43:13 Giacomo: Yes it is not causing a conflict so not relevant. 14:44:11 Carlos: We will discuss this with Wilco again 14:44:42 Giacomo: I think we need 2 examples to illustrate it, but it is hard without the repetitions 14:44:56 Carlos: It is nice to avoid the repetitions but not a must. 14:46:41 Giacomo: As the element is not exposed is not the same as the rule mentioned 14:47:01 Carlos: We will wait for Wilco to return to move this forward 14:47:02 zakim, take up next 14:47:02 agendum 5 -- [NEW RULE] - ARIA required accessible names - aria-required-accessible-name-gp8n89 - https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2190 -- taken up [from 14:47:05 ... CarlosD] 14:47:18 Giacomo: Nothing to report on this one yet sorry 14:47:39 Carlos: That is expected as was only discussed 2 weeks ago 14:52:23 present+ 14:53:14 RRSAgent, draft minutes v1 14:53:15 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-minutes.html CarlosD 14:53:58 present+ Shunguo 14:54:01 RRSAgent, draft minutes v1 14:54:02 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-minutes.html CarlosD 14:54:17 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:54:18 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-minutes.html CarlosD 14:54:50 zakim, end meeting 14:54:50 As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, CarlosD, Helen, Sage, Kathy, todd, Shunguo 14:54:59 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1 14:55:00 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-minutes.html Zakim 14:55:06 I am happy to have been of service, CarlosD; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 14:55:06 Zakim has left #act-r 14:55:09 RRSAgent, draft minutes 14:55:10 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/04-act-r-minutes.html CarlosD