12:54:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:54:11 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/09/03-matf-irc
12:54:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:54:12 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:54:19 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 3 September 2025
12:54:19 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:54:27 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 3 September 2025
12:54:32 <JJ> chair+
12:54:39 <JJ> agenda+ Project planning update
12:54:45 <JJ> agenda+ Page definition applied
12:54:51 <JJ> agenda+ Set of Web pages definition
12:54:56 <JJ> agenda+ Change of Context definition
12:55:01 <JJ> agenda+ Not modified by the author & provided by the user agent or platform software
12:55:21 <JJ> regrets+ TimGravemaker
12:55:32 <JJ> regrets+ quintinb
12:56:03 <Joe_Humbert> present+
12:56:23 <shoobe01> shoobe01 has joined #matf
13:02:01 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:02:08 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:02:12 <pauljadam> present+
13:03:32 <Tanya> present+
13:03:40 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:04:10 <GleidsonRamos> present+
13:04:48 <JJ> Zakim, nominate scribe
13:04:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'nominate scribe', JJ
13:04:51 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:04:51 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose GleidsonRamos
13:05:24 <JJ> Zakim, nominate a scribe
13:05:24 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Joe_Humbert
13:05:52 <JJ> scribe: Joe_Humbert
13:05:56 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:05:56 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Project planning update -- taken up [from JJ]
13:07:12 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: had meeting with Tanya last Monday. includes ideas for better participation in meetings
13:07:17 <JJ> To facilitate active participation:
13:07:17 <JJ> engage switching on cameraʼs during the meetings;
13:07:17 <JJ> inventory who contributes what in the coming 3-6 months:
13:07:17 <JJ> editorial team = people who actually draft
13:07:18 <JJ> review team = people who review drafts and give feedback
13:07:18 <JJ> plenary participant = people who participate in plenary sessions, vote, participate in
13:07:18 <JJ> discussions
13:07:19 <JJ> meeting structure:
13:07:19 <JJ> every 2 weeks: editorial team: hands-on drafting, resolving blockers, aligning text
13:07:19 <JJ> every 2 weeks: plenary: status update, discussions, decisions/voting
13:07:24 <pauljadam> cameras on wont happen from me :)
13:08:10 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: summary of meeting provide in IRC
13:10:05 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:11:21 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: summarizing backlog and Planning ideas. Define target date then work backwards
13:11:23 <JJ> Backlog and planning:
13:11:23 <JJ> define a target date for a publication submission
13:11:23 <JJ> work backwards into milestones:
13:11:23 <JJ> draft [xx] by
13:11:24 <JJ> review by
13:11:24 <JJ> vote by
13:11:24 <JJ> remove all ambiguous / deprecated issues from the backlog
13:11:25 <JJ> assign due dates for the issues that are in scope of targeted publication draft
13:11:25 <JJ> always end the editorial meeting with actively dividing / assigning tasks to the members of
13:11:25 <JJ> editorial team
13:11:30 <shoobe01> I can turn on the camera but am on a couple computers and 4+ screens so you'll often see the side of my head; I leave off for most meetings because it /looks/ specifically like I am not paying attention.
13:13:49 <pauljadam> probably stand up meeting could work where you show the board with issues assigned to folks
13:14:18 <pauljadam> I feel like cameras on puts PwD at a disadvantage
13:14:24 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: if we want to release another draft this year, draft needs to be done by November 1 for cfc. Work needs to be done in September and October
13:14:27 <JJ> structure of the draft
13:15:04 <shoobe01> Agree with pauljadam, actual explicit discussion of backlog grooming is good, whether special session or just first 10 min of weekly meeting.
13:15:18 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: showing Editorial guideline document for WCAG2Mobile
13:15:43 <JJ> Phase 1 (till the end of 2025): WCAG2Mobile - Informative group note
13:15:43 <JJ> Goal
13:15:43 <JJ> To produce a clear, minimal, and consistent group note that aligns with WCAG 2.2 and provides
13:15:43 <JJ> structured notes and examples only when necessary (when the note itself does not provide
13:15:44 <JJ> enough context).
13:15:44 <JJ> This phase focuses on:
13:15:44 <JJ> Success Criteria
13:15:45 <JJ> Definitions
13:16:05 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: posting summary of document in IRC
13:17:14 <Jamie> present+
13:17:47 <Joe_Humbert> @JJ: goal is to increase the speed of our work and increase participation
13:18:41 <shoobe01> present+
13:19:04 <Joe_Humbert> Tanya: Nothing to add to JJ's summary. trying to help use our time efficiently
13:19:47 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: any feedback on two teams/meeting?
13:20:05 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:20:09 <Carol> present+
13:20:23 <GleidsonRamos> +1 to the proposes
13:20:34 <Tanya> q+
13:20:47 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:20:57 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: if you have feedback reach out here, by email, or slack
13:21:11 <pauljadam> Slack would be good!!!
13:22:06 <Joe_Humbert> Tanya: possibly use slack for communication because of number of participants on the zoom call
13:22:25 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: will send out email about proposed group changes
13:23:17 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: thanked Tanya for all the help
13:23:32 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: another update in 2 weeks
13:23:36 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:23:36 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Page definition applied -- taken up [from JJ]
13:24:14 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: no further comments on PR so it was merged
13:25:13 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: the term "Page" has been replaced throughout our group note including definition for page agreed on by this group
13:25:34 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/
13:25:41 <JJ> https://w3c.github.io/matf/#page
13:25:48 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:25:48 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Set of Web pages definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:25:52 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: if issues, please raise a GitHub issue
13:26:10 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11#issuecomment-3248213694
13:27:12 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: "'set of webpages"' will become "'set of pages" based on group agreement on the term "page"
13:27:15 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-set-of-web-pages
13:27:19 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#dfn-set-of-web-pages
13:28:00 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: showing old definition of "set of webpages" in WCAG 2.2 and the new terms in WCAG2ICT
13:28:33 <Jamie> q+
13:28:34 <JJ> is "collection of pages that share a common purpose and that are created by the same author, group or organization" sufficient for WCAG2Mobile?
13:29:30 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: shows new draft definition of "set of pages" for WCAG2Mobile, including examples
13:30:36 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:30:46 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/11
13:32:28 <shoobe01> q+
13:32:32 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie: The word "application" is not used anywhere in our definition. This word could be important in our definition. We might need to discuss and/or define what we mean by collection.
13:33:21 <Joe_Humbert> Jamie: provide examples to "set of..." for mobile apps
13:34:08 <JJ> ack shoobe01
13:34:21 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: most examples mention "navigation" because the SCs that use "Set of webpages" relate to navigation
13:36:19 <Joe_Humbert> shoobe01: agrees with what Jamie said., concerned about phrase "template changes". Discuss structure of applications (supersets and subsets). We may need examples of these ideas
13:37:43 <JJ> Sets of pages is Referenced in:
13:37:43 <JJ>     2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
13:37:43 <JJ>     2.4.5 Multiple Ways
13:37:43 <JJ>     3.2.3 Consistent Navigation
13:37:44 <JJ>     3.2.4 Consistent Identification
13:37:44 <JJ>     3.2.6 Consistent Help
13:38:43 <JJ> 2.4 Navigable & 3.2 Predictable
13:39:02 <JJ> q?
13:39:07 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: There are differences in navigation between apps and websites. Using app toolbars as an example and other common app patterns. An Auditor would need to choose what is part of a set. Also discusses the different WCAG SCs that use "set of webpages"
13:39:46 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: how many examples do we need for our definition?
13:40:04 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:40:04 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
13:40:14 <JJ> ack shoobe01
13:40:17 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:40:46 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:40:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Change of Context definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:40:58 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/69
13:41:49 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: this issue has been around awhile and we have discussed this issue multiple times
13:41:59 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-change-of-context
13:43:04 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: shows and summaries WCAG2.2 definition for "change of context". Discusses defined terms that are part of this definition
13:44:01 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: if we have new definition of "user agent", this gets us pretty far on this definition
13:44:56 <shoobe01> IME people use "viewport" for native/hybrid apps enough to a lot. Esp useful for webview hybrid apps, defining what part has what viewport. So seems reasonable to keep the term, but may need to examine if current def covers all mobile/hybrid uses.
13:45:05 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: WCAG2ICT definition of "change of context" in some instances links to WCAG 2.,2, but WCAG2ICT has its own definition
13:45:36 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: discussing WCAG2ICT definition of "change of context"
13:46:13 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: do we need to change anything for our definition?
13:47:01 <JJ> q?
13:47:04 <shoobe01> "A viewport may contain another viewport" seems to cover my biggest concern of current def.
13:47:34 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: WCAG2ICT changed viewport definition to include the word "software'
13:48:16 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:48:16 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Not modified by the author & provided by the user agent or platform software -- taken up [from JJ]
13:48:23 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/80
13:48:27 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: in viewport definition "user agent" is replace with "software"
13:49:25 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: discussing where phrase "Not modified by the author..." is being used in SCs
13:49:54 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: SCs are listed in issue #80 linked above
13:50:32 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: discussing comment from Detlev on issue
13:51:12 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:51:21 <Jamie> present+
13:51:39 <JJ> q?
13:51:43 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: the group had a similar discussion when talking about WCAG SC 4.1.2. This SC might need better examples
13:52:10 <shoobe01> q+
13:52:23 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: do we have examples of "Not modified by the author & provided by the user agent or platform software:?
13:52:28 <JJ> ack shoobe01
13:52:30 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:53:43 <Joe_Humbert> shoobe01: Confused by this discussion. Has questions about target size. Mentions styling components as an example of is this relevant
13:54:51 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: gives examples of the same element (and code) being rendered differently by different user agents, particularly web browsers. Talks about example of Mobile OS Alerts
13:55:19 <Joe_Humbert> shoobe01: thanked JJ for giving examples for him to research
13:55:24 <JJ> q?
13:56:16 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: more questions?  If you have comments, please add them to the GitHub issue
13:57:17 <Joe_Humbert> JJ: will send out minutes and email about project changes. goal is another draft by end of year
13:57:41 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
13:57:41 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, pauljadam, Tanya, GleidsonRamos, Jamie, shoobe, Carol
13:57:55 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
13:57:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/09/03-matf-minutes.html JJ
13:59:34 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
13:59:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items