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12:09:59 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group
12:10:34 <ivan> ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-08-28: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Aug/0020.html
12:10:35 <ivan> Chair: Susan
12:10:35 <ivan> Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco
12:10:35 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Aug/0020.html
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13:03:59 <ivan> present+ mgarrish
13:04:12 <ivan> topic: fallbacks
13:04:52 <duga> gautierchomel: The question from FL a11y guidance doc (a hybrid doc), on reviewing it the RS part has some stuff about supporting fallbacks. It says "in cases where it is supplied, RS should support"
13:05:13 <AvneeshSingh> present+
13:05:17 <shiestyle> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2773
13:05:24 <duga> ... but we are missing a section on what can be done or not with them. The only guidance is in the main spec, which does not say what you cannot do
13:05:50 <duga> ... there was some work done on auto-reflow on FL, with intent to use HTML fallback on an HTMLresource
13:06:07 <ivan> present+ kraler
13:06:18 <duga> ... We realized it wasn't the right way, but if that was attempted then it means the spec isn't clear enough
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13:06:23 <duga> q+
13:06:49 <duga> ... For example, can I have an html fallback for svg? Spec doesn't say no
13:07:17 <duga> ... to me this is a question to address in the FL doc, since it is specific to reflow documents in FL docs
13:07:20 <ivan> present+ Elizabeth
13:07:34 <sueneu> ack: duga
13:07:43 <duga> ... but group decided not to address it there and do it here, though I disagree with that and think it should be in the FL doc
13:07:52 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:08:13 <sueneu> duga: why do you say html fallbacks of html aren't the right way to do it?
13:08:27 <sueneu> …did it break reading systems and not work in practice?
13:08:33 <ivan> scribe+ sueneu
13:09:01 <mgarrish> q+
13:09:48 <sueneu> gautierchomel: the reading system already accepts fixed layout. I want you to use a fall back, we were asked to add a button to select the fall back. We can't do that.
13:10:15 <sueneu> …in thorium we will offer a fall back view, but we won't be allowed to switch between them
13:10:26 <ivan> present+ HadrienGardeur
13:11:08 <sueneu> duga: I don't know what is right for your reader, when we created the fall back spec we decided it was legal to have a same type fallback ie html with an html fallback
13:11:34 <wendyreid> q+
13:11:49 <sueneu> …we didn't specify how a reading system can determine which file is the fall back
13:12:18 <sueneu> …I don't think we should limit the fallback and say you can't fall back to the same filetype
13:12:24 <wendyreid> ack mgarrish
13:13:17 <sueneu> mgarrish: I agree that we could fall back to a different file type. This is an interesting case, because fallbacks weren't made with fixed layout in mind
13:13:35 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
13:13:38 <sueneu> …how do we indicate which html is fixed layout and which is reflowable?
13:14:18 <sueneu> wendyreid: the other thing making this complicated is that this use case is maybe out of step with the intention of fallbacks.
13:14:38 <sueneu> …"the reading system can't render the original" so it has a file it can render
13:14:42 <gautierchomel> q+
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13:15:04 <sueneu> …this particular usage is not that the reading system can't render the original, but that we want to give the user choices
13:15:07 <Hadrien> present +
13:15:15 <Hadrien> q+
13:15:26 <sueneu> …there should be a different mechanism for that. There could be other alternative cases
13:15:26 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:15:33 <mgarrish> q+
13:15:52 <sueneu> gautierchomel: we should not address the reading system giving a choice to the reader, that is up to the reading system
13:16:10 <sueneu> …some reading systems don't display anything when they encounter a fixed layout
13:16:56 <sueneu> …still we should know what we should and shouldn't do when an rs cannot display an fxl
13:17:10 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:17:13 <sueneu> …and does this go in the fxl document or the main document
13:17:26 <sueneu> Hadrien: I have seen things like this before,
13:17:49 <sueneu> …Barnes and Noble wanted to keep the print like experience, but also offer a reflowable
13:18:10 <sueneu> …but there isn't a one to one mapping between the fxl and the reflowable assets
13:18:52 <sueneu> …B&N chose multiple renditions with a document that could map an area in fxl to the reflowable
13:19:00 <mgarrish> q-
13:19:11 <sueneu> …Hachette creates multiple rendition epubs without mapping
13:19:33 <sueneu> …fallback will not work well because of the mapping issue
13:19:45 <sueneu> …we probably need something more like an alternate
13:20:03 <sueneu> …there is a similar proposal in the comics task force
13:20:41 <sueneu> …it would be easier for some publishers to have an easy way to map the html to a resource
13:21:21 <gautierchomel> q+
13:21:28 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:21:50 <sueneu> gautierchomel: let's separate the discussion about fallbacks and alternate renderings
13:22:19 <sueneu> …still the issue about what should I do in an fxl file that can't be rendered
13:23:00 <sueneu> wendyreid: the challenge is that an fxl file can't be shown or renders badly
13:23:27 <Hadrien> q+
13:23:31 <sueneu> …this is like the audio only readers, the problem isn't fixed layout, but that the file doesn't follow semantic html
13:23:49 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:23:52 <sueneu> …so the guidance we have in place would still solve the issue
13:24:13 <sueneu> Hadrien: we are working on Thorium mobile, we already support the ability to listen to an fxl
13:24:38 <sueneu> …with a well structured fxl you can have a decent voice experience. But this isn't always the case
13:25:05 <sueneu> …we will try to process and find sentences and groups of words
13:25:19 <sueneu> …it won't work if there is no text or text is out of order
13:25:43 <sueneu> wendyreid: our emphasis should remain on well structured content
13:25:48 <ivan> q+
13:25:50 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:25:54 <sueneu> …but we should discuss alternatives
13:26:31 <sueneu> ivan: we took multiple rendition out of 3.3 because there was no implementation for this
13:26:48 <sueneu> …is that still true, or should we keep in the past
13:27:17 <sueneu> Hadrien: there is implementation within propriety specialized reading systems
13:27:26 <sueneu> …not usually as an interoperable format
13:27:39 <sueneu> …does anyone know if B&N still uses this?
13:27:54 <sueneu> ivan: does vital source use it?
13:28:31 <sueneu> …if not, we should keep multiple rendition in the past
13:29:00 <George> q+
13:29:29 <sueneu> sueneu: what is the next step? Should we make recommendations for creators?
13:30:09 <sueneu> wendyreid: This is for the fxl accessibllitiy task force, I don't recommend using html fallbacks because it isn't proven.
13:30:20 <shiestyle> ack George
13:30:29 <duga> q+
13:30:39 <sueneu> George: the user who doesn't want that experience may want an alternative
13:30:47 <sueneu> …can we create this?
13:30:48 <gautierchomel> q+
13:30:49 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:31:25 <sueneu> duga: we don't have to solve the world's problems
13:31:53 <sueneu> …it sounds like the issue is we want to use fall backs
13:32:07 <sueneu> …we tried this but it doesn't work.
13:32:33 <sueneu> …for fixed layout books, we might have multiple documents point to a single html
13:32:47 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:32:48 <sueneu> …do we simply need to say that fall backs don't work in this case?
13:33:09 <sueneu> gautierchomel: one problem at a time. We just need to put a note in the fixl document
13:33:20 <sueneu> …maybe in fxl specs
13:33:40 <Hadrien> q+
13:33:56 <sueneu> …in the future we should let content creators know how to restyle this html
13:34:02 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:34:11 <sueneu> …in the future multiple rendition might come back
13:34:36 <sueneu> Hadrien: what we want to do in Thorium is the style selection you can do in a browser
13:34:51 <sueneu> …and use no original styling
13:35:09 <sueneu> …I am doubtful that people will be excited about this and use it again
13:35:18 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: what we want to do in thorium web is the equivalent of the reading mode in the browser, so there's no way to style this form a content creator perpective. Multiple rendition have not been used, we should not want to try again.
13:35:21 <gautierchomel> q+
13:35:22 <sueneu> …I would be happy to point people to what already exists
13:35:33 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:35:47 <sueneu> gautierchomel: does anyone know of a specification on reading mode provided by a browser
13:35:48 <CharlesL> q+
13:35:54 <sueneu> ivan: I haven't seen that
13:36:13 <sueneu> ack: CharlesL
13:36:29 <shiestyle> ack CharlesL
13:37:05 <sueneu> CharlesL: back in the day there was a reader who could show you a scan or a reflowable ocr rendering
13:37:15 <ivan> s/ack CharlesL//
13:37:25 <DaleRogers> q+
13:37:31 <wendyreid> ack DaleRogers
13:38:14 <sueneu> DaleRogers: I created an epub, fxl, a short comic, with a relowable introduction and backmatter that was reflowable
13:38:29 <sueneu> …according to the spec I can do this, it worked in Apple Books
13:38:50 <sueneu> …Amazon wouldn't take it. I chatted with someone who looked at his epub
13:39:04 <sueneu> …they suggested uploading it as a comic book
13:39:06 <shiestyle> q+
13:39:52 <sueneu> …and not allow the front matter and back matter to be reflowable
13:40:24 <sueneu> …their creator tool requires loading in PDFS that can't be made accessible
13:40:52 <sueneu> …there are some platforms on which this will be accessible and some where it isn't
13:41:10 <sueneu> …even though the spec says I should be able to do this
13:41:31 <sueneu> …it takes me aback that I can't always use features listed in the spec
13:41:43 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
13:42:18 <sueneu> q+
13:42:21 <gautierchomel> shiestyle: in japan, if we want to mix fxl and reflow, e generate a reflow with some ressources fixed.
13:42:29 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
13:44:45 <Hadrien> q+
13:44:59 <wendyreid> ack Hadrien
13:45:02 <gautierchomel> sueneu: sotwo different discussion. One to go to the fxl group and the other to keep in mind for the futur.
13:45:19 <gautierchomel> s/sotwo/so two/
13:47:27 <gautierchomel> duga: my understanding is that we want to explicitly say what won't work.
13:47:42 <CharlesL> s/futur/furture/
13:48:08 <ivan> s/furture/future/
13:48:18 <ivan> s/sotwo/so two/
13:48:45 <duga> +1 to Hadrien
13:48:51 <gautierchomel> Hadrien: probably, a problem is that many properties are spine based while they would give better benefit in the manifest
13:49:16 <sueneu> topic: Survey data visualization
13:49:16 <gautierchomel> topic: survey
13:49:36 <ivan> s/topic: survey//
13:50:18 <gautierchomel> sueneu: we are reaching the end of the survey. I started to play with collected data to see how we can visualise it. I wonder if a binari pro vs con numbers would be of use.
13:50:42 <gautierchomel> q+
13:51:01 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:51:16 <gpellegrino> q+
13:51:30 <duga> gautierchomel: There is a grey zone between pro and con, I am afraid giving those numbers gives a false feeling
13:51:38 <ivan> q+
13:51:45 <duga> ... It is more graduated than the numbers might suggest
13:53:16 <gautierchomel> sueneu: showing data visualisation on my screeen. I broke pro and con by role. I agree there is a lot of grey area. We could have multiple people scoring reactions. The pain will fall at different point depending on roles.
13:53:16 <gautierchomel> q+
13:53:23 <wendyreid> ack gpellegrino
13:53:38 <wendyreid> ack ivan
13:53:46 <gautierchomel> sueneu: the survey closes in two weeks.
13:55:11 <gautierchomel> ivan: yes, a lot of grey area, but we have to do a binary choice. I think we should make a report to adress those grey areas regardless of the final decision.
13:56:56 <gautierchomel> ivan: another problem, is that representation is not suficiently distributed. We miss more reading system responses. That may invalidate the whole exercise. I hope we get more answers from apple, google, kobo.
13:57:20 <duga> q+
13:57:24 <wendyreid> ack gautierchomel
13:57:24 <gautierchomel> ivan: maybe we should extend the survey period to reach that.
13:57:54 <duga> gautierchomel: We might want to extend, we are also preparing a response and will have it soon
13:58:13 <duga> ... back to binary choice, I would like to see if there are blokers
13:58:27 <duga> ... are there people for whom html will totally break things
13:58:46 <duga> ... even if 90% say yes, if 10% have big blockers then we should not say yes
13:59:08 <wendyreid> ack duga
13:59:12 <wendyreid> q+ sueneu
14:00:22 <gautierchomel> duga: about getting RS onboard, I can send some messages. I also think we can reach those organisations ACs.
14:00:37 <wendyreid> ack sueneu
14:01:59 <gautierchomel> sueneu: about if there are blockers, I wonder how we want to display those answers. What we want to share with the community.
14:02:35 <gautierchomel> ivan: workflow developpers said they would have impossibility to accept HTML
14:02:35 <gautierchomel> q+
14:03:12 <gautierchomel> wendyreid: we're out of time, let's think more about this for next week.
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14:03:48 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:03:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/28-pmwg-minutes.html ivan
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