12:56:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:56:28 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/27-matf-irc
12:56:28 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:29 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:56:34 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF 27 August 2025
12:56:34 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:56:42 <JJ> Meeting: MATF 27 August 2025
12:56:48 <JJ> chair+
12:57:04 <JJ> agenda+ Project planning update
12:57:09 <JJ> agenda+ Page definition pull request
12:57:15 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures
12:57:21 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation
12:57:26 <JJ> agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name
12:57:31 <JJ> agenda+ User Agent definition
12:57:36 <JJ> agenda+ Document definition
12:57:42 <JJ> agenda+ Change of Context definition
12:58:00 <Joe_Humbert> present+
13:01:08 <pauljadam> pauljadam has joined #matf
13:02:23 <Tanya> Tanya has joined #matf
13:02:29 <shoobe01> present+
13:02:38 <Tanya> present+
13:03:12 <pauljadam> present+
13:04:21 <JJ> regrets+ quintinb
13:04:43 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:04:43 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Project planning update -- taken up [from JJ]
13:04:57 <JJ> zakim, nominate a scribe
13:04:57 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose pauljadam
13:05:17 <JJ> scribe: pauljadam
13:06:14 <GleidsonRamos> GleidsonRamos has joined #matf
13:06:19 <GleidsonRamos> present+
13:06:46 <pauljadam> JJ starting meeting with project planning update
13:07:21 <pauljadam> JJ There are over 190 open issues in github
13:07:35 <JJ> JJ: next Monday will go through the issues with Tanya
13:07:45 <Carol> Carol has joined #MATF
13:07:53 <Carol> present+
13:07:59 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:07:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Page definition pull request -- taken up [from JJ]
13:08:04 <Tim> Tim has joined #matf
13:08:07 <JJ> https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/263
13:08:13 <Tim> present+
13:08:18 <pauljadam> JJ: next item is on page definition
13:08:54 <pauljadam> JJ: showing the key terms
13:08:56 <JJ> keyterms.md contains the new page definition: https://github.com/w3c/matf/pull/263/files#diff-55b5bad7ce674a1ccf6bf170c295dd26f0e8693288f424cbd939ae7ee81f4e99
13:09:21 <pauljadam> JJ: content may need to be defined
13:10:16 <pauljadam> JJ: the section for content definition is shown as work in progress
13:11:03 <pauljadam> JJ: looking into what markup is required to put example as a title
13:11:22 <Jamie> Jamie has joined #matf
13:11:31 <Jamie> present+
13:11:48 <pauljadam> JJ: There are 10 to 15 criteria with page
13:12:31 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG to ICT has been updated
13:12:33 <JJ> WCAG2ICT has been updated 21 August: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/
13:13:07 <pauljadam> JJ: they fixed the order of their anchor tags with the SC then the number then the name
13:13:30 <pauljadam> JJ: would like to talk about content, in some places we replaced any content with any view
13:13:44 <pauljadam> JJ: in JJ's opinion that did not work too well with page
13:14:00 <pauljadam> JJ: reading audio control SC
13:14:08 <pauljadam> JJ: remove web and make page
13:14:35 <pauljadam> JJ: reading note the all content on the web page must meet this SC, how do we deal with the use of content how do you replace content with page
13:14:43 <pauljadam> JJ: any page vs whole page
13:15:10 <pauljadam> JJ: before re replaced content with view and that kind of work but now we have page so not sure how it works that is the question to the group how will we deal with content?
13:15:19 <pauljadam> JJ: suggestion that we just add our own term and leave it as content
13:15:27 <pauljadam> JJ: this is what WCAG2ICT has done
13:15:49 <pauljadam> JJ: they have redefined content for non-web which allowed them to keep using the definition of content without need a replacemeent
13:16:04 <pauljadam> JJ: where content or web content appears, they replaced it with that definition
13:16:21 <Jamie> q+
13:16:25 <pauljadam> JJ: make note in key terms that we have replaced certain works everywhere
13:16:34 <Jamie> q-
13:16:40 <pauljadam> JJ: request you go through pull request to check if missed anything when applying page
13:16:49 <pauljadam> JJ: otherwise we are good to go with starting to use page
13:16:55 <pauljadam> JJ: checking if any questions
13:17:17 <pauljadam> JJ: any questions on page vs content?
13:17:21 <JJ> Any questions about 'page' or 'content' and how to use them?
13:18:01 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: asking where is the definition of content
13:18:13 <pauljadam> definition is empty
13:18:27 <pauljadam> JJ: perhaps we can replace content with page in some places
13:18:42 <pauljadam> q+
13:18:59 <pauljadam> JJ: can't replace content with page in some SC like Captions
13:19:00 <Jamie> qq+
13:19:05 <Jamie> q+
13:19:15 <pauljadam> JJ: looking at WCAG2ICT
13:19:17 <JJ> Content definition in WCAG2ICT: https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#content-on-and-off-the-web
13:19:31 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:19:31 <Zakim> Jamie, you wanted to react to a previous speaker and to
13:19:40 <pauljadam> Jamie: asking why are we trying to make content the same as page?
13:19:55 <pauljadam> Jamie: is there a request to make the word content the same as page?
13:20:21 <pauljadam> JJ: what we did with view and replaced content with view, it's maybe better to keep content as its own, dont replace it with view or page
13:20:24 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:20:32 <pauljadam> JJ: we just have our own mobile specific definition of content
13:20:54 <pauljadam> Jamie: content is not indented to be used in that larger picture way in some scenarios
13:21:08 <pauljadam> JJ: dont replace content with page keep as written make our own definition at some point
13:21:10 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:21:48 <JJ> pauljadam: content vs page, content can be everything on a page, but content can also be a single paragraph
13:23:04 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:23:25 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: WCAG2ICT have definition of content that Joe used as part of user agent definition
13:23:25 <Joe_Humbert> https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/225
13:23:38 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: do we want to modify it, look at it?
13:24:31 <pauljadam> JJ: reading definition of content from Joe's link
13:24:55 <Joe_Humbert> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-content
13:25:07 <pauljadam> JJ: as first draft this definition of content could work in combination with the software definition
13:25:24 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: posted link to content (web content) definition
13:25:59 <pauljadam> JJ: reading definition of content from the WCAG 22 link
13:26:26 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG2ICT only changed user agent to software in their definition
13:26:51 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: that's what they had so included as starting point
13:27:08 <pauljadam> JJ: checking how we did this with software
13:27:42 <pauljadam> JJ: content and software definitions can be taken from WCAG 2 ICT with some changes
13:27:54 <pauljadam> JJ: could be applied to hybrid and native and web based mobile apps
13:28:04 <pauljadam> JJ: ready to go to next topic
13:28:10 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:28:10 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures -- taken up [from JJ]
13:28:16 <pauljadam> JJ: pointer gestures
13:28:29 <pauljadam> JJ: hope to get this done for this meeting
13:28:40 <pauljadam> JJ: hope to get done by next week
13:28:45 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:28:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, JJ
13:28:52 <pauljadam> JJ: skipping until updated definition to vote on
13:28:58 <pauljadam> JJ: moving to next item
13:29:02 <pauljadam> JJ: pointer cancellation
13:29:14 <pauljadam> JJ:  discussed last week
13:29:18 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:29:18 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation -- taken up [from JJ]
13:29:54 <pauljadam> JJ: showing pointer cancellation discussion from last week
13:30:07 <pauljadam> JJ: comments about OS behaviors, exceptions on OS browser level
13:30:18 <pauljadam> JJ: discussion about essential exceptions if they can be applied there
13:30:34 <pauljadam> JJ: on the web there are W3C and browser standards
13:30:54 <pauljadam> JJ: on mobile it's not always accessible by default and developers dont always have ability to make it accessible
13:31:11 <pauljadam> JJ: note 6 added applicability of the OS
13:31:26 <pauljadam> JJ: limitations of technology but maybe not make excempt
13:31:32 <pauljadam> JJ: asking if anymore comments since last week?
13:31:45 <pauljadam> JJ: how will we deal with pointer cancellation and maybe in relation to pointer gestures
13:32:10 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict-22/#pointer-cancellation note 6: This requirement also applies to platform software, such as user agents, assistive technology software, and operating systems. Each layer is responsible for its own pointer actions only, not for those in an underlying layer.
13:32:13 <pauljadam> JJ: showing notes
13:32:36 <pauljadam> JJ: note 6 says this requirement applies to platform software, each layer responsible for its own actions, discussed about the layers
13:33:13 <pauljadam> JJ: seems the exception is already there if it's out of your scope not in our layer, processed by OS layer or something else then you don't have to worry 0because it's out of scope
13:33:20 <pauljadam> JJ: checking if any other comments for this week?
13:33:39 <pauljadam> JJ: little more time or we can move to next item
13:33:44 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:33:44 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- 2.5.3 Label in Name -- taken up [from JJ]
13:33:47 <Jamie> q+
13:33:51 <pauljadam> JJ: moving to next item label in name
13:34:17 <pauljadam> Jamie: what are we planning to do with these pointer gestures action wise?
13:34:32 <pauljadam> Jamie: are we just moving on or what do we need to do for the action?
13:34:51 <pauljadam> JJ: draft definition then bring back to group for feedback and move on for now
13:35:07 <pauljadam> JJ: discuss with Tanya next Monday to see how we deal with the SCs that are stuck
13:35:18 <pauljadam> Jamie: what are we stuck on exactly?
13:35:35 <pauljadam> JJ: not stuck just lack of time to update based on latest feedback
13:35:44 <pauljadam> JJ: pointer cancellation ahs a little more feedback, need to align
13:35:54 <pauljadam> JJ: make sure those notes are not conflicting
13:36:03 <pauljadam> JJ: we have enough feedback to make anew draft
13:36:19 <pauljadam> JJ: for label in name there was a discussion last week
13:36:38 <pauljadam> JJ: discussion include method for reading up cards and cells with long text
13:36:53 <pauljadam> JJ: making apps easier to use with shorter labels for voice control
13:37:16 <pauljadam> JJ: updating to make text at beginning of accessible name in note 1
13:37:34 <pauljadam> JJ: reading possible note from Jamie
13:38:05 <pauljadam> JJ: does Jamie have anything else to add?
13:38:16 <pauljadam> Jamie: ideas for now, open to any adjustments
13:38:24 <pauljadam> Jamie: not partial to the first one
13:38:45 <pauljadam> Jamie: want to get the conversation about these 3 topics what to do with multiple text stings, grouping issues
13:39:08 <pauljadam> Jamie: voice control note 1 putting text as best practice at beginning of accessible name
13:39:20 <pauljadam> JJ: anyone want to give feedback on this approach
13:39:26 <pauljadam> JJ: or notes drafted
13:39:57 <pauljadam> JJ: no further feedback at this point so same status as gesture
13:40:07 <pauljadam> JJ: looks ready to be fine tuned then back to group
13:40:23 <pauljadam> JJ: how can we raise more interest feedback out of meeting asking Tanya
13:40:33 <pauljadam> JJ: good to go for today
13:40:41 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:40:41 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, JJ
13:40:45 <JJ> q?
13:40:48 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:40:52 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:40:52 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- User Agent definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:41:01 <pauljadam> JJ: 6 item user agent definition
13:41:09 <pauljadam> JJ: already looked at earlier today
13:41:13 <pauljadam> JJ: in relation to content
13:41:21 <pauljadam> JJ: user agent need to figure how to use in mobile apps
13:41:31 <pauljadam> JJ: user agent is used in web browser and could be example of OS
13:41:46 <pauljadam> JJ: make user agent work need to define software and need to define contnet
13:42:07 <pauljadam> JJ: comments on definiton of software how to deal with hybrid web view apps
13:42:23 <pauljadam> JJ: what definition of manipulate
13:42:38 <pauljadam> JJ: video audio content transcript content
13:42:54 <pauljadam> JJ: what is needed to move forward with user agent
13:42:55 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:42:59 <pauljadam> JJ: what further work needed?
13:43:04 <pauljadam> JJ: or put as key term in draft?
13:43:09 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:43:40 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: last week discussed AT mentioned in WCAG 2.2 as example in notes or do we want to exclude that or not
13:43:59 <JJ> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#dfn-user-agents
13:44:01 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: in example it says web browser media players including assistive technologies
13:44:04 <JJ> Web browsers, media players, plug-ins, and other programs — including assistive technologies — that help in retrieving, rendering, and interacting with web content.
13:44:18 <JJ> "including assistive technologies" > change that?
13:44:24 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: so if we want to change that it would be a diversion up to us
13:44:38 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: last week folks wondering why AT was included in user agent definition
13:44:46 <pauljadam> JJ: that's clear thanks Joe
13:44:52 <pauljadam> JJ: any other comments on user agent?
13:45:04 <pauljadam> q+
13:45:21 <pauljadam> JJ: user agent can be any software that presents content
13:45:22 <JJ> ack pauljadam
13:45:51 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:46:09 <JJ> pauljadam: re. assisistive tech as part of user agent, developers don't have all control
13:46:21 <shoobe01> q+
13:46:49 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:46:52 <pauljadam> JJ: web browser and AT might be different
13:47:20 <pauljadam> Joe_Humbert: you can create your own assistive technology service as part of an app and that's something to consider
13:47:21 <JJ> Joe_Humbert: AccessibilityService on Android to make your own assistive tech
13:47:46 <pauljadam> JJ: Accessibility Service lets you make assistive technology like TalkBack
13:48:01 <JJ> ack shoobe01
13:48:04 <pauljadam> JJ: accessibility service can read all content on the screen for assistive use case
13:48:50 <pauljadam> Shoobe01: you can modify a browser, remind people there are AT that interpret content in different ays, likes the definition shown on the screen
13:49:07 <Tanya> q+
13:49:20 <pauljadam> JJ: for today clear either include AT or dont or could leave it there at this moment a look at it in the future
13:49:35 <JJ> q?
13:49:40 <JJ> ack shoobe
13:49:42 <JJ> ack Tanya
13:49:43 <Jamie> q+
13:49:55 <pauljadam> Tanya: open question do we need to look at definition in WCAG 3.0?
13:50:12 <pauljadam> JJ: not relevant because we're mapping with WCAG 2.2
13:50:23 <shoobe01> pauljadam edit to transcript 08:48 "cannot" modify a browser.
13:50:38 <pauljadam> JJ: it's separate set of quide lines we can draw inspiration from but don't have to align
13:50:57 <Jamie> q-
13:50:58 <pauljadam> Tanya: worth looking at WCAG 3.0 definitions for inspiration
13:51:34 <pauljadam> Tanya: one difference they specify software user agent is software that retrieves and presents external content for users
13:51:53 <pauljadam> JJ: external content, what is considered that and what is not
13:52:09 <pauljadam> JJ: maybe take a look at  WCAG 3
13:52:23 <pauljadam> JJ: WCAG 3 was broader that web but now narrowed down to web
13:52:28 <JJ> q?
13:53:01 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:53:01 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- Document definition -- taken up [from JJ]
13:53:01 <pauljadam> JJ: last item of today
13:53:11 <pauljadam> JJ: document definition
13:53:24 <pauljadam> JJ: do a poll on
13:53:32 <pauljadam> JJ: drop the term document
13:53:49 <pauljadam> JJ: in WCAG2ICT they differentiate between document and software
13:54:02 <pauljadam> JJ: we wont need the document definition
13:54:29 <pauljadam> JJ: non web document defintion
13:54:41 <pauljadam> JJ: dont really need document definition in our guidance
13:54:48 <JJ> Poll: drop document definition in WCAG2Mobile?
13:54:58 <Jamie> +1
13:55:18 <pauljadam> JJ: put plus one if you agree to drop, or put -1 or 0 if neutral, if don't agree then please explain, etc.
13:55:18 <Joe_Humbert> +1
13:55:22 <pauljadam> +1
13:55:24 <Tanya> +1
13:55:27 <Tim> +1
13:55:50 <shoobe01> 0
13:55:55 <Carol> +1
13:55:56 <GleidsonRamos> +1
13:55:56 <pauljadam> JJ: 5 votes in so far
13:56:12 <pauljadam> JJ: 9 participants minus JJ as chair
13:56:40 <pauljadam> JJ: 8 votes
13:57:08 <JJ> ACTION: Group is in favor of dropping the document term (7 times +1 and 1 time 0)
13:57:15 <pauljadam> JJ: recorded as action
13:57:18 <pauljadam> JJ: end for today
13:57:45 <pauljadam> JJ: next week hope to have update after talking with Tanya about milestones of what is achievable this year with goal to work towards
13:57:55 <pauljadam> JJ: maybe second publication what could be included
13:58:09 <pauljadam> JJ: look at GitHub for issues to work on
13:58:15 <pauljadam> JJ: look at issues we discussed today
13:58:21 <pauljadam> JJ: leave on github
13:58:31 <pauljadam> JJ: checkout page pull request for any typos etc
13:58:41 <pauljadam> JJ: thanks for attending, see you next week
13:59:09 <JJ> Zakim, list participants
13:59:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, shoobe, Tanya, pauljadam, GleidsonRamos, Carol, Tim, Jamie
13:59:37 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/27-matf-minutes.html JJ