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11:53:44 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-irc
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11:53:44 <TallTed> meeting: Data Shapes WG
11:53:48 <TallTed> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-08-25.md
11:53:48 <TallTed> bah. slow bots!
11:53:50 <agendabot> clear agenda
11:53:50 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion
11:53:50 <agendabot> agenda+ Process
11:54:19 <TallTed> meeting: Data Shapes WG
11:54:19 <TallTed> agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-08-25.md
11:54:20 <agendabot> clear agenda
11:54:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Discussion
11:54:20 <agendabot> agenda+ Process
11:54:32 <TallTed> clear agenda
11:54:33 <TallTed> agenda+ Phase 2 subgroup reports
11:54:35 <TallTed> agenda+ stadardised document elements
11:54:37 <TallTed> agenda+ Overview's What's New
11:54:39 <TallTed> agenda+ SHACL-C v. SHACL-CS?
11:56:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
11:56:45 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: Data Shapes WG -- 2025-08-25 agenda: https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/blob/agenda/admin/agenda-2025-08-25.md
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11:57:29 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/08/18-data-shapes-minutes.html
11:57:29 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/09/01-data-shapes-minutes.html
11:57:40 <TallTed> s/bah. slow bots!//
11:58:11 <TallTed> present+
11:58:46 <TallTed> chair: elianaP
12:00:24 <AndyS> Agenda request - publishing editors working drafts of phase 2 docs
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12:01:40 <TallTed> agenda?
12:02:08 <HolgerK> present+
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12:02:22 <elianaP> present+
12:02:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:02:31 <AndyS> present+
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12:03:15 <ajnelson-nist> present+
12:03:27 <simonstey> present+
12:03:39 <edmond> present+
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12:04:31 <ajnelson-nist> scribe: ajnelson-nist
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12:05:22 <mgberg> present+
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12:05:29 <ajnelson-nist> One additional point added to agenda from AndyS.
12:05:32 <YoucTagh> present+
12:05:33 <ajnelson-nist> topic: Subgroup reports
12:05:48 <ajnelson-nist> subtopic: Profiling subgroup
12:05:51 <SimonW> present+
12:05:58 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: Nothing added to profiles in the last week.
12:06:11 <ajnelson-nist> subtopic: SHACL UI
12:06:34 <ajnelson-nist> edmond: Had first meeting.  Went over features in specs that we want to align with in SHACL UI.
12:06:45 <ajnelson-nist> ... Topics have been written up in GitHub issue, will go over in tomorrow's meeting.
12:06:53 <ajnelson-nist> ... Task force creatd, meeting now in W3C calendar.
12:07:00 <ajnelson-nist> s/creatd/created/
12:07:18 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: Does Profiling group have meeting this week?
12:07:32 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: Yes, same Zoom link as regular meeting, but at Thursday, this time.
12:07:39 <ajnelson-nist> subtopic: SHACL Rules
12:07:47 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS: First meeting tomorrow.
12:07:56 <ajnelson-nist> ... Task force established per W3C process.
12:08:04 <caribou> present+ Carine
12:08:09 <ajnelson-nist> ... Meeting agenda should be on everyone's calendar.
12:08:31 <ajnelson-nist> subtopic: SHACL Compact Syntax
12:08:49 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: no Vladimir or Jesse today
12:08:49 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #data-shapes
12:08:57 <ajnelson-nist> ... Unsure if there's a meeting for that this week.
12:09:05 <DavidHabgood> present+
12:09:08 <ajnelson-nist> topic: Standardized document elements
12:09:37 <fsasaki> present+
12:09:46 <Robert> present+
12:09:57 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: I said I'd get the document listings so there'd be a consistent include mechanism.  Written statically at the moment.  PR noted in agenda.
12:10:13 <ajnelson-nist> ... We can look for other standardized pieces of documents.
12:10:27 <ajnelson-nist> ... Review needed, from elianaP or ajnelson-nist.
12:10:27 <AndyS> q+
12:10:31 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: What's new section
12:10:46 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: Required for horizontal review process.
12:10:58 <ajnelson-nist> ... Written up Holger's LinkedIn post.
12:11:14 <ajnelson-nist> ... The What's New WILL shift a bit as the documents evolve.
12:11:25 <ajnelson-nist> ... Editors need to keep an eye on this What's New text so it evolves in line.
12:11:34 <ajnelson-nist> ... This will probably be the most summarized form of our deliverables.
12:11:44 <ajnelson-nist> ... PR is ready for everyone to look at.
12:12:20 <ajnelson-nist> ... Request - we should get this out of Review and into an an initial draft so editors can incrementally revise.
12:12:34 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: Requirements for Explainer should be checked.
12:13:00 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: This seems close already to the Explainer requirements.
12:13:09 <TallTed> AndyS, elianaP, caribou -- some more work will be needed on the TF subgrounds (such has how to join). note there are 2 here -- https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/?search=shacl -- but there's also https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/be6795a3-ddea-4b65-97e4-e58efa13f0c4/
12:13:18 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS: Stepping back to task forces,
12:13:24 <HolgerK> ack AndyS
12:13:38 <ajnelson-nist> ... updates on Compact Syntax?
12:13:56 <TallTed> q+
12:13:57 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: There are two editors at the moment.
12:14:05 <ajnelson-nist> AndyS: But they're not editors yet until there's a document.
12:14:35 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: Will send an ask to them to confirm their timelines.
12:14:55 <elianaP> q?
12:15:02 <TallTed> ack me
12:15:02 <AndyS> s/But they're not editors yet/No additional contributors until/
12:15:04 <elianaP> ack TallTed
12:15:17 <ajnelson-nist> topic: SHACL-C vs. SHACL-CS
12:15:26 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: Assuming this is about the abbreviation of SHACL Compact Syntax.
12:15:55 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: Eliana, can you also ask the editors their opinion?
12:16:06 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:16:39 <TallTed> more re TF -- `SHACL Rules` and `SHACL UI` are in my calendar
12:16:52 <ajnelson-nist> ajnelson-nist: Suggestion for looking to prefixes for if we'd want cs vs. c.
12:17:12 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: There was some use in issues pre-existing the group that went either way.
12:17:12 <AndyS> q+
12:17:46 <ajnelson-nist> ( elianaP, TallTed, nicholascar, ajnelson-nist seem to lean towards "cs")
12:17:49 <ajnelson-nist> ack me
12:17:53 <AndyS> The file extensions are ".shc" and ".shaclc"
12:18:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:19:04 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: Call for consensus
12:19:31 <ajnelson-nist> caribou : Will look into resolving Call for Consensus on documents' early publishing.
12:19:39 <simonstey> agenda?
12:19:44 <ajnelson-nist> Topic: Blocking PRs on editorial issues
12:19:49 <HolgerK> https://github.com/w3c/data-shapes/pull/509#discussion_r2289027948
12:20:02 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: There was some controversy on some issues about editorial issues holding PRs.
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12:20:33 <ajnelson-nist> ... Should these editorial changes be treated as blocking?
12:20:34 <TallTed> q+
12:20:47 <ajnelson-nist> ... If there are strong feelings about layout of source code, they should be done in a later pass.
12:21:05 <ajnelson-nist> ... This is a blocker on some personal workflows.
12:21:41 <AndyS> ack me
12:22:09 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: When I'm reviewing a PR, I put in suggested changes, some purely editorial, some not.
12:22:24 <ajnelson-nist> ... I shoot for better comprehensibility, for consumers outside of this group.
12:22:42 <ajnelson-nist> ... It is perfectly reasonable and acceptable to make new issues about requested changes.
12:23:17 <HolgerK> q+
12:23:25 <HolgerK> ack me
12:23:49 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: In the case where it's about sentences, I've just accepted them.
12:24:09 <TallTed> q+
12:24:22 <ajnelson-nist> ... Once properties get added with different word-length, lines outside of that one line need to shift in order to remain aligning.
12:24:48 <ajnelson-nist> ... But this blocks a PR.
12:25:51 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: In any Suggestion, there is a 3-dot menu at the upper right of every Suggestion, which can export the change to a new Issue.
12:25:51 <AndyS> q+
12:26:01 <ajnelson-nist> ...
12:26:02 <ajnelson-nist> q+
12:26:24 <AndyS> ack TallTed
12:26:27 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: When others make suggestions, they are not blocking.
12:26:43 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: But comments disappear into GitHub.
12:26:57 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: I do handle both the same way.
12:26:57 <ajnelson-nist> ...
12:27:21 <ajnelson-nist> ... Request - please make comments before requesting changes.
12:27:27 <ajnelson-nist> q-
12:27:40 <AndyS> q-
12:28:03 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: Comments are less-accountable than Requested Changes.
12:28:34 <caribou> q+
12:29:04 <ajnelson-nist> ... Someone who files a Comment neds to go back to see how each individual Comment was handled.
12:29:22 <ajnelson-nist> caribou: When an Issue is made, that's just editorial, the editors are trusted to handle it well.
12:29:43 <TallTed> q+
12:29:51 <ajnelson-nist> ... The theory is stronger-consideration issues would go to the discussion group.
12:30:42 <ajnelson-nist> elianaP: Are there other options for this?  Such as filing Issues proactively?
12:31:18 <ajnelson-nist> TallTed: Editorial often means "Does not change normativity."
12:31:45 <ajnelson-nist> ... The job of the Editor is not to serve as a magazine editor.  It is to serve as the implementor of the working-group's discussions on how things should be done.
12:32:16 <ajnelson-nist> ... Timing of deployment of these decisions is left to the editor.  Time crunch at the end is an option.
12:33:21 <ajnelson-nist> ... Turtle does not have as much prettifying support in scripting for these documents.  So, we're at manual implementation for these style matters.
12:34:10 <nicholascar> q+
12:34:31 <TallTed> ack me
12:35:46 <ajnelson-nist> nicholascar: I think I agree much with TallTed's workflow here.  Most of TallTed's comments on a recent PR were actionable, I resolved them.  Some weren't, but in at least one case, I postponed one to an Issue, and marked the comment Resolved, delegated to separate Issue.
12:35:49 <TallTed> (and things that take a bit of time now should not be problematic now when we have flexible timing, vs things that take a bit of time at the end of process when we're under the gun)
12:35:54 <AndyS> q+
12:36:19 <ajnelson-nist> HolgerK: Ok, I can try working like this.  Will make a separate ticket for tabbing property values.
12:36:50 <AndyS> q-
12:39:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-minutes.html TallTed
12:59:35 <elianaP> Zakim, end meeting
12:59:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been TallTed, HolgerK, elianaP, AndyS, ajnelson-nist, simonstey, edmond, mgberg, YoucTagh, SimonW, Carine, DavidHabgood, fsasaki, Robert
12:59:38 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
12:59:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/25-data-shapes-minutes.html Zakim
12:59:45 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, elianaP; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
12:59:45 <Zakim> Zakim has left #data-shapes
12:59:52 <elianaP> RRSAgent, excuse us
12:59:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items