12:17:30 RRSAgent has joined #pmwg 12:17:34 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/21-pmwg-irc 12:17:34 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:17:35 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group 12:17:49 ivan has changed the topic to: Meeting Details 2025-08-21: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Aug/0011.html 12:17:50 Chair: wendy 12:17:50 Meeting: Publishing Maintenance Working Group Telco 12:17:50 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pm-wg/2025Aug/0011.html 12:47:48 DaleRogers has joined #pmwg 12:57:34 shiestyle has joined #pmwg 12:57:34 gautierchomel has joined #pmwg 12:58:43 wendyreid has joined #pmwg 12:59:40 toshiakikoike has joined #pmwg 12:59:42 present+ 12:59:46 MasakazuKitahara has joined #pmwg 12:59:49 present+ DaleRogers 13:00:00 present+ gautierchomel 13:00:03 present+ 13:00:13 present+ 13:00:20 present+ 13:00:27 present+ 13:00:41 present+ 13:00:42 present+ george 13:01:10 present+ avneeshsingh 13:01:18 CharlesL has joined #pmwg 13:01:22 present+ CharlesL 13:01:28 sue-neu has joined #pmwg 13:01:35 Avneesh has joined #pmwg 13:01:41 present+ 13:01:41 gpellegrino has joined #pmwg 13:01:45 present+ 13:01:49 present+ 13:01:50 present+ 13:01:51 George has joined #pmwg 13:01:55 scribe: sue-neu 13:02:18 present+ 13:02:46 duga has joined #pmwg 13:02:53 present+ 13:03:01 Hadrien has joined #pmwg 13:03:04 present + 13:03:21 Topic: Extended Descriptions - https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2691 13:03:58 scribe+ sue-neu 13:04:08 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 13:04:18 present+ LaurentLM 13:04:21 George has joined #pmwg 13:04:47 gpellegrino: I volunteered to work on the standardized aproach to semantically describe 13:05:14 …the image itself and the backlink that takes people to their original postion 13:05:28 …Adobe will implement extended descriptions 13:05:55 …this is different than alt text, extended descriptions have no standard way to make them 13:06:15 …we are looking for a standard way to have extended descriptions across publishers 13:06:21 George has joined #pmwg 13:06:30 …similar to the discussion we had about footnotes 13:06:48 …so RS can leverage best practices and other tools also 13:07:10 …we did an experiment, linked in the github issues 13:07:14 George has joined #pmwg 13:07:28 …uses just the tags we have with the standards and existing ARIA codes and attributesd 13:07:49 …I have put together a main content file with 2 images 13:08:02 …one figure has a caption with a link to the extended description 13:08:55 …for both descriptions there is an ARIA tag called @@[1] 13:09:11 s/@@[1]/aria-details/ 13:09:23 …the extended description is in the spine with the attribute "linear: no" 13:09:59 …in this separate file we have containers made with section elements. Within them we have the image, the desccription 13:10:08 …the image is hidden from screen readers 13:10:31 …the extended description can use tags beyond text 13:10:56 …in tests, we want to know if these can be programmatically identified 13:10:58 Gregorio's poc is available at https://github.com/daisy/transitiontoepub/tree/main/extended-desc-experiments 13:11:23 …so you can identify the links to extended description 13:11:39 …at this time we cannot identify the extended description div with a role 13:12:07 …we see that maybe one or two roles could help identify the links to the extended descriptions and description containers 13:12:25 …we are open to discussion right now 13:12:29 q? 13:12:56 q+ 13:12:59 ack CharlesL 13:13:35 CharlesL: When we first had this discussion, the objection was that publishers didn't want an ugly link under their images 13:14:36 Geroge: an icon might be more palatable for publishers. So their would be a link with alt text 13:15:01 CharlesL: what has changed? Are publishers more receptive to this? 13:15:10 q+ 13:15:16 ack gpellegrino 13:15:16 …or is still the clickable image link preferred? 13:15:19 q+ 13:15:36 q+ 13:15:40 gpellegrino: the technique we are proposing could work with icons or text links 13:15:44 ack wendyreid 13:15:51 …but the semantics behind it would be the same 13:16:13 wendyreid: did we do anything with the details element? Does that mess up pagination? 13:16:17 q+ 13:16:23 q+ 13:16:39 …any guidance for the icon must be very clear so it meets a minimum touch target size 13:16:41 q+ 13:16:45 ack ivan 13:16:55 …making the images themselves links creates other problems for RS 13:17:56 ivan: anything we do we should also do it in our own document 13:18:29 …we are talking about an HTML document, it doesn't work in our current spec to make a separate document for the extended description 13:18:36 ack CharlesL 13:18:40 q+ 13:18:43 q+ 13:18:48 …is there another solution that is plain text readable for everyone 13:19:31 CharlesL: regarding the visible URL under an image that you click on to get to the extended description is what publishers objected to 13:19:34 q+ 13:20:15 …the link doesn't have to be to a separate document in the spine 13:20:32 …this is just another HTML page that is separate 13:20:52 …the summary details, our previous option works well in HTML 13:21:26 …RS have problems with extended descriptions they can expand past the end of the current page and not be fully displayed 13:21:34 …RS say this would be hard to fix 13:21:35 ack gpellegrino 13:22:11 gpellegrino: in EPUB we try to leave the user experience to the RS and the contetn to the EPUB 13:22:37 …the semantic tagging we are proposing maintains this 13:22:58 …so the content creator is not imposing an experience on the user 13:23:34 …in the first experiment, we tried having an extended description on the same page isn't simple for the publisher 13:23:47 ack George 13:24:02 …adding external files is easier so that's what we propose as the standard 13:24:21 George: people are asking us to tell them how to do this, and not give them options 13:24:59 …when we identify and icon, we should try to standardize what this icon is and what it looks like 13:25:08 q+ 13:25:19 …so it becomes known to readers that it will lead to an extended description 13:25:44 …we would have the semantics on this through a DPUB ARIA role 13:26:00 ack shiestyle 13:26:09 …it shouldn't take as long as it has in the past to get new DPUB ARIA roles if the community wants it 13:26:32 q+ 13:26:34 shiestyle: my colleagues tested this 13:27:13 q- later 13:27:13 …you propose to add a new feature only when people are using assitive technologies? 13:27:36 George: I think having the icon would be visible for everyone and would not require assistive technology 13:27:52 shiestyle: so the icon or the link would be visible for all? 13:28:04 shiestyle: is this different from footnotes? 13:28:32 George: these descriptions can get quite long, having them in a modal may be too long 13:28:45 ack LaurentLM 13:28:53 …if you have the semantics from DPUB ARIA a reading system can put them anywhere they want 13:29:14 https://daisy.github.io/transitiontoepub/best-practices/extended-desc/ExtendedDescriptionsBestPractices.html 13:29:21 LaurentLM: there are already recommendations. Having just one would help reading systems 13:29:28 https://apln.ca/how-to-add-extended-descriptions-in-epubs/ 13:29:43 https://kb.daisy.org/publishing/docs/html/images-desc.html 13:29:50 …would we contact Daisy? APLM? and the knowledge base? 13:30:05 …would these 3 documents be updated by decisions made here? 13:30:21 q+ 13:30:23 …so the other options would be suppressed in this case? 13:30:24 ack Avne 13:30:29 George: yes 13:30:47 Avneesh: these techniques are specific to the EPUB world 13:31:07 …we need to make these because of the constraints of our environment 13:31:18 q- 13:31:31 …we will be working on details about the visiblity of links, etc. in the WG 13:31:49 …can the larger group focus on the reading systems 13:32:04 q- 13:32:11 …what does the reading system need? Are new roles required only for the extended description text? 13:32:29 q+ 13:32:30 …we plan to discuss this with the APA maybe at TPAC 13:32:40 ack ivan 13:33:08 ivan: related to Laurent's question? What is the intention of this? 13:33:23 …what is the idea to give the text the maximum visibility 13:34:06 Avneesh: the idea is to develop best practices within the WG 13:34:24 …maybe a new specification on DPUB or DPUB ARIA 13:34:45 ack duga 13:34:48 q+ 13:34:54 …this best practice will inform what specification changes we need to make 13:35:18 duga: looking at the examples, how do we know there is a double indirection? 13:35:34 …now the ARIA details are a link to something else that should be extracted 13:36:00 …if you go to the details, you would want to extract the extended descriptions and take the user directly there 13:36:13 ack George 13:36:17 …would reading systems know this is a double indirection? 13:37:23 gpellegrino: using ARIA details as an attribute may cause this issue, thinking that a RS can follow the link change without showing the user an external document 13:37:58 q+ 13:38:59 duga: the heuristic is if the ARIA details is a link you follow that link to get the details, but don't follow it if it isn't a link 13:39:41 George: so this role, there are two possibilities. One is an extended description reference on an anchor, so you know it is a link 13:39:53 …then the target is the extended description. 13:40:18 …in the HTML world where they may want to use the details element and linking and not taking people away from a page 13:40:42 q+ 13:40:44 …you could then put the extended description attribute in the details element. 13:40:44 ack Hadrien 13:41:13 Hadrien: thinking about the expectations. We set expectations that are different from the web 13:41:33 q+ 13:41:33 …there is probably and expectation that the user can access a detail view 13:41:59 …another is links, but we don't treat links the same way 13:42:30 …we would identify that this link is somehow different and we would display it in a different way, maybe a new view that could be dismissed 13:42:53 …and when I think of readaloud, what is expected from a reading system? 13:43:16 …mention that there is an extended description? just play the description? 13:43:46 q- later 13:43:49 q+ 13:43:49 …these considerations are more important than our technical solution 13:43:54 ack gpellegrino 13:44:01 q- 13:44:08 …i don't think we have thoroughly discsussed what these expectations are 13:44:25 gpellegrino: and there is another expectation in the supply chain 13:44:40 ack duga 13:44:44 …that tools can open an epub and understand when there is an extended description 13:44:59 q+ to comment on meeting with APA 13:45:18 duga: I think a role will be helpful, because by the time you get to a link you need to know it is an extended description 13:45:44 …in readaloud you could get the link and replace the image, does it get read aloud? 13:45:58 q+ 13:46:07 ack Avneesh 13:46:07 Avneesh, you wanted to comment on meeting with APA 13:46:10 without a role, you might need to figure out that an extended description link is somehow different 13:46:19 +1 for Brady 13:46:31 Avneesh: another topic, we would like to discuss this with the APA 13:46:59 …most of the people in the APA will be online. It is becoming challenging to arrange the meeting at TPAC 13:47:20 …perhaps we can arrange a virtual meeting at another time? 13:47:31 ack ivan 13:47:36 +1 to APA meeting ahead of time 2 weeks would be good, week before harder :) 13:47:37 wendyreid: as long as it is OK with the APA it is no problem for us 13:47:49 -> details' def https://w3c.github.io/aria/#aria-details 13:48:02 ivan: looking at the definition of ARIA details, list a number of roles 13:48:16 …is the idea here that we would add one or more roles here? 13:48:29 …the APA can accept or refuse them? 13:49:02 gpellegrino: with the plain link, we are already safe 13:49:16 ivan: the behavior has to be defined in some way 13:49:54 …looking at the details, we are hoping to add bullit items under details 13:50:19 gpellegrino: yes. and if we need other roles to work with the extended description 13:50:25 q+ 13:50:29 ack CharlesL 13:51:03 CharlesL: in that link on the ARIA details one of the items is pointing to an anchor that points to an extended description 13:51:15 q+ 13:51:17 ivan: but then there are no details about what should happen 13:51:23 ack George 13:51:34 wendyreid: I may have to talk to the ARIA group about extending the details 13:51:52 q+ 13:51:58 Geroge: we have talked about images and those are most of the cases but there may be other elements 13:51:59 s/the items/the items (Example 36) 13:52:07 …for instance super complex tables 13:52:12 ack ivan 13:52:36 s/Geroge/George/ 13:52:57 q+ 13:52:58 ivan: sometimes complex mathematical formulas require descritpions as well 13:53:14 wendyreid: we will contact the APA to set up a new meeting time 13:53:27 ack ivan 13:53:41 ivan: maybe we can get this meeting done before TPAC but we can maintain the meeting time at TPAC 13:54:17 Avneesh: perhaps we can have a follow up meeting after TPAC 13:54:43 ivan: agreed 13:55:06 wendyreid: is there anything else we should be doing in the meantime? 13:55:19 Avneesh: we need to pinpoint our exact ask for the APA 13:55:51 wendyreid: this was a really good discussion, we will push the other agenda items to another time 13:56:18 CharlesL has left #pmwg 13:57:22 @ivan can you finish up the minutes? 13:58:03 yes 13:58:42 thank you! 13:58:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:58:57 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/21-pmwg-minutes.html ivan 14:59:27 gautierchomel has joined #pmwg 15:22:18 LaurentLM has joined #pmwg 16:02:38 Zakim has left #pmwg