with a lot of text, it's starting to display but there's still content streaming in 07:26:44 noamr: some issues in the past with wanting an element to only appear when it's done, or have some indication 07:26:54 noamr: this is a very specific thing in the html parser spec 07:27:10 q+ 07:27:13 noamr: so the idea's pretty simple, a pseudo-class for whether an element is still open 07:27:22 ack fantasai 07:27:22 fantasai, you wanted to ask if this should be distict from whether stuff is loaded 07:27:31 fantasai: are the use-cases different from those for querying an elemetn is loaded? 07:27:35 noamr: like an image? 07:27:35 kizu has joined #css 07:27:42 fantasai: any element, you want parsed and all its resources loaded 07:27:50 fantasai: do you want a query distinct from that? parsed and not yet loaded? 07:27:59 present+ 07:27:59 noamr: a lot of things can be parsed and dont' have laoded resources 07:28:05 fantasai: yeah, those'll be done loading immediately 07:28:12 present+ 07:28:12 fantasai: but for something that has loaded stuff, do you need to distinguish? 07:28:29 noamr: unsure. it's a level of granularity down. don't mind starting from something a little more general like :loaded 07:28:34 noamr: and then taking it down if needed 07:28:52 noamr: if you think aobut containers, or things parsed in a chunked way, often the sub resources arne't loaded, lots of child elements 07:29:04 noamr: does "loaded" mean all the hcildren are loaded? 07:29:11 fantasai: is that what you want? 07:29:24 fantasai: specifically, what's the use-case you're trying to solve 07:29:31 present+ 07:29:40 noamr: people want to control their progressive loading experience better. articles coming in, but don't want it to show while it's mid-loading 07:29:52 noamr: want to either indicate it's loading, or make it invisible until it's loaded 07:30:12 astearns: looking thru web components issue, i don't see any discussion about the current :loaded trigger we have 07:30:25 astearns: i think it woudl be good to see if our existing :loaded selector woudl be sufficient 07:30:54 fantasai: so q is, rather than using a new selector, is it good to reuse the existing selector? 07:31:03 fantasai: if you haven't thought about this yet, coudl be worth thinking about 07:31:11 fantasai: so do users *want* to distinguish between parsed and loaded? 07:31:13 ack emilio 07:31:34 emilio: to impl this, you need add a [??] notification that elements have loaded, which some elements alreayd have 07:31:42 this one is somewhat related, https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/8175 07:31:49 emilio: when previously discussed, i think there were perf constraints with doing this for all elements 07:32:18 emilio: there's a similar thing with... like having this pseudo-class - presumably if element is empty this'll never apply, only while getting chidlren 07:32:27 emilio: i'm a bit concerned about the number of style changes it adds to page loads 07:32:28 q+ 07:32:40 emilio: like :has(:loading) suddenly invalidates constantly 07:32:54 s/loading/parsing/ 07:33:01 emilio: my udnerstanding is in the past, blink folks objected to the more general idea here 07:33:03 emilio: in the html discussions 07:33:13 noamr: that was a JS thing, this is a style thing 07:33:28 emilio: at least for us, the "children are done" thing is an extra operation the parser send to the dom 07:33:36 emilio: i think rn we only use that for select and textarea, maybe two or three more 07:33:54 noamr: from chromium perspective, we do that- it's expensive, but we can do it based on existing selectors 07:34:05 emilio: there could be a stylesheet loading in flight, don't think you can do it conditionally 07:34:21 emilio: just saying, this has been dsicussed in the past. doesn't necessarily block, but would be good to have more feedback 07:34:31 emilio: but my udnerstanding is our parser folks wouldn't be very happy with this 07:34:43 noamr: i'll check, i have more parser knowledge than i did a year ago, not too concerned 07:34:53 matthieud has joined #css 07:34:55 noamr: when we added blocking for link rel=expect, similar thing 07:34:59 emilio: yeah, that's conditional tho 07:34:59 andreubotella has joined #css 07:35:12 emilio: something that might be interesting is restricting this to elements the page cares about 07:35:28 emilio: so that might be good to investigate. you usually care about just one or two elements, not all sub-children 07:35:31 emilio: just like a main article 07:35:43 emilio: would be good to get some hint from the page about what elemens i care about 07:35:46 ack TabAtkins 07:35:54 TabAtkins: was going to suggest exactly that 07:36:03 ... it's not a state we care about for ~all elements 07:36:09 ... so maybe we can opt in at the markup level 07:36:34 ... with an attribute or so, which would opt into the pseudo class 07:36:44 ... that'd make me happier with reusing :loading/:loading 07:36:58 ... usually that's a thing that applies more to images / videos 07:37:11 ... but if it's just a handful of articles you have marked or so it seems fine 07:37:32 github-bot, take up https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12579 07:37:32 Topic: [css-selectors-4] CSS reflection of "patching" 07:37:32 OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/12579. 07:38:04 noamr has joined #css 07:38:17 noamr: anothe rintro topic 07:38:26 noamr: working with the whatwg on a new ability we're calling "patching" 07:38:35 noamr: letting you stream content into an element while or after it's loaded 07:38:48 noamr: letting you pull in some html and direct it into an element. in JS or declaratively 07:39:04 noamr: like HTML with a