12:48:39 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:48:44 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/20-matf-irc 12:48:44 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:48:45 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), Joe_Humbert 12:49:02 Zakim, This is MATF August 20, 2025 12:49:02 got it, Joe_Humbert 12:49:23 Meeting: MATF August 20, 2025 12:49:27 chair+ 12:49:50 regrets+ Quintin Balsdon 12:50:08 regrets+ Steven Hoober 12:50:37 zakim, agenda? 12:50:37 I see nothing on the agenda 12:50:48 agenda+ Project planning update 12:50:59 agenda+ 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures 12:51:14 agenda+ 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation 12:51:27 agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name 12:51:40 agenda+ User Agent definition 12:51:57 agenda+ Document definition 12:52:10 agenda+ Change of Context definition 12:52:18 present+ 12:52:24 zakim, agenda? 12:52:24 I see 7 items remaining on the agenda: 12:52:25 1. Project planning update [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 2. 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 3. 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 4. 2.5.3 Label in Name [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 5. User Agent definition [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 6. Document definition [from Joe_Humbert] 12:52:25 7. Change of Context definition [from Joe_Humbert] 13:01:00 Jamie has joined #matf 13:01:05 present+ 13:02:05 jeroen has joined #matf 13:02:05 hdv has joined #matf 13:02:06 Tim has joined #matf 13:03:08 pauljadam has joined #matf 13:06:18 Zakim, nominate a scribe 13:06:18 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Joe_Humbert 13:06:25 Zakim, nominate a scribe 13:06:25 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Jamie 13:06:28 rachaely has joined #matf 13:06:54 scribe: Jamie 13:07:21 move to next agendum 13:07:21 agendum 1 -- Project planning update -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert] 13:07:31 present+ 13:07:43 presernt+ 13:07:44 present+ 13:07:48 present+ 13:08:30 Joe_Humbert project planning: asked JJ for a burn-down list of things to get done by end of the year 13:08:58 Joe_Humbert suggesting a prioritty list of what should get done by the end iof the year. 13:10:08 Joe_Humbert shows a list of tasks in GitHub that are assigned and then there are items for discussion. In progress there are currently 9 but 172 to-do 13:10:11 Joe_Humbert 13:10:29 move to next agendum 13:10:29 agendum 2 -- 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert] 13:10:33 Joe_Humbert plugging help from others to help out more with these ideas 13:10:48 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/37 13:12:03 Joe_Humbert JJ has planned to update the directional movement phrasing which is a task for next time based on previous meeting and remove Note 3. JJ in progress but anyone can help 13:13:01 move to next agendum 13:13:01 agendum 3 -- 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert] 13:13:01 Joe_Humbert next date for 2.5.1 TBD 13:14:11 Joe_Humbert summarized 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation discussion including comments from Detlev and Steven discussing OS behaviors 13:15:50 Joe_Humbert In WCAG there are a lot of exceptions for OS level or browser level things that developers cannot change, /If the OS is doing something and the developers can;t change because it I s part of the technology the expectation would not be that the developers and would not be a violation of WCAG 13:16:40 Joe_Humbert Steven brought up that OS changes, in essence not wanting to exempt OS level items 13:17:03 q+ 13:17:04 q+ 13:17:20 ack pauljadam 13:17:27 q+ 13:17:50 pauljadam does not see any exception in the wording of the SC itself, do we need this? 13:18:07 Joe_Humbert JJ was thinking about the essential behavior of the OS 13:19:52 Jamie8 has joined #matf 13:20:40 Jamie has joined #matf 13:20:55 q+ 13:20:57 present+ 13:21:05 ack Jamie 13:21:05 pauljadam toggles are examples in iOS that may not be acting as expected such as undoing, but not sure if that fails if you can untoggle? 13:21:16 ack rachaely 13:21:40 rachaely Can we discuss the examples of things that would be considered exempt ? 13:21:59 pauljadam not sure we really need to add language about this 13:22:01 q+ 13:22:50 Joe_Humbert Looking at Note 2 specifically of WCAG2ICT 13:23:11 pauljadam maybe like a piano app where you need to play on the down event? 13:23:33 rachaely or maybe the pull-down menu or Home Screen app behavior 13:23:50 pauljadam devs don't have control over those items 13:24:06 ack Tim 13:25:00 Tim the essential part seems more about the function, like the piano example, and not necessarily the essential behavior of the OS, that;s code not necessarily a function, so I'm hesitant to think of "essential" as "operating system" 13:25:18 ack Jamie 13:28:26 Joe_Humbert if we can't think of things this may be moot 13:29:27 Jamie we might want to consider a phrasing at a higher level like "limitations of the technology" that is more general as that can address the concerns in the Github issue from Steven while not chasing every version of an OS 13:30:12 Joe_Humbert This SC has a lot of Notes, any comments from folks about them? We are ignoring Closed Functionality notes 13:31:15 rachaely points out that Note 6 explicitly added applicability of the OS so that's the exact opposite of what we just discussed. 13:31:42 Joe_Humbert no other notes discussed 13:32:00 move to next agendum 13:32:00 agendum 4 -- 2.5.3 Label in Name -- taken up [from Joe_Humbert] 13:36:02 Jamie has joined #matf 13:37:27 present+ 13:37:58 @jamie reviewed Accessible Name and Description 1.1 document in WCAG 13:42:29 Joe_Humbert this is tangentially related to the label 13:42:46 Jamie posted some initial notes in Github issue #39 13:45:37 I would say that the label text is what is shown inside the control with the focus outline shown around that control and text. So if a card does not want all of the text to be the label for the card then it should be separate focused elements and the entire card should not be focused as one element. If the full card is focused as one element then 13:45:37 all the visible text shown is the label text. 13:47:50 Jamie has joined #matf 13:47:54 present+ 13:48:05 Jamie explained that we needed notes for custom actions and cards with large amounts of text 13:48:41 pauljadam cards could be separated into the interactive area and non-interactive 13:49:01 Joe_Humbert "contains" could be include the text but not all text 13:49:16 q+ 13:49:35 pauljadam definition of contained actually means all the visual text is contained in the accessible name 13:49:38 rachaely agreed 13:50:09 q+ 13:50:22 ack pauljadam 13:50:39 Jamie has joined #matf 13:50:45 present+ 13:51:46 pauljadam should ew acknowledge that Voice Control needs to match? 13:52:44 Joe_Humbert iOS specifically adds the ability to provide alternative ways for Voice Control users to access content 13:52:56 ack rachaely 13:53:40 rachaely would it be a good note to acknowledge that the best practice is best specifically for Voice Control? 13:54:03 Joe_Humbert we could emphasize the best practice as elevated for voice users 13:54:45 rachaely editing that note it adding an additional note could be good. Android API 36 for "supplemental descriptions" is coming out 13:55:01 Joe_Humbert Getting close to Android alternative for aria_describedby 13:56:10 Jamie has joined #matf 13:56:22 present+ 13:58:37 @Jamie will update the notes as posted in the Github issue #39 and further review edits to the current WCAG2ICt Notes 13:59:15 Joe_Humbert looking ahead to next week's discussion and summarizing comments on Voice Control testing I missed 14:00:14 In my own testing iOS Voice Control for "Show Labels" now only shows the first word of the accessible name and only requires users to say that first "word". In addition iOS has a feature to allow alternative phrases to be used by Voice recognition users, but as Paul points out this is a separate attribute apart from the accessible name 14:00:38 Zakim, list participants 14:00:38 As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, Jamie, rachaely, pauljadam, Tim 14:00:53 rrsagent, make minutes 14:00:54 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/20-matf-minutes.html Joe_Humbert 14:01:41 rrsagent, bye 14:01:41 I see no action items