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12:34:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:34:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
12:34:53 <janina> Meeting: APA Weekly Teleconference: Special Presentation
12:35:00 <janina> Date: 20 Aug 2025
12:35:09 <janina> Chair: Janina
12:35:39 <janina> agenda+ Welcome & Announcements
12:35:53 <janina> agenda+ Guest Introduction -- Matthew
12:36:28 <janina> agenda+ Presentation
12:36:39 <janina> agenda+ Q & A Followup
12:36:45 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
12:36:50 <janina> agenda+ Be Done
12:36:54 <janina> agenda?
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13:57:19 <janina> present+
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14:01:13 <lola> present+
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14:03:12 <matatk> agend?
14:03:16 <matatk> agenda?
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14:03:24 <matatk> s/agend?/agenda?/
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14:03:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:03:39 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Welcome & Announcements -- taken up [from janina]
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14:04:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Maturity Model, we expect progress this week
14:04:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close this item
14:04:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:04:26 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:04:26 <Zakim> 2. Guest Introduction -- Matthew [from janina]
14:04:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:04:28 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Guest Introduction -- Matthew -- taken up [from janina]
14:05:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Please start the recording
14:05:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Introduced this special presentation 20 August 2025
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14:07:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Introduced Lola, who is active in W3C as well as accessibility, including ARIA and TAG
14:07:13 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close this item
14:07:13 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
14:07:14 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:07:14 <Zakim> 3. Presentation [from janina]
14:07:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:07:17 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Presentation -- taken up [from janina]
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14:22:12 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Lola presented, we direct people to the recording link that will be shared on the list.
14:22:49 <janina> q?
14:24:46 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:24:53 <janina> q?
14:26:04 <lola> https://github.com/lola-s-lab/accessibility-compat-data/tree/master
14:26:27 <janina> ack li
14:27:24 <matatk> q+
14:27:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: Can you tell us about how you see your audience and their relationship to WCAG as opposed/contrasted with ACD
14:28:04 <janina> q+
14:28:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> lola: We see WCAG as giving criteria on how content should be presented on the web
14:28:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... think about a text. WCAG says, be this size, meet these requirements, etc
14:28:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... ACD is saying, if the paragraph element doesn't work, this dataset will tell you that
14:29:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... when ACD is complete, a matrix or cross-reference could be made with WCAG
14:29:43 <janina> ack ma
14:30:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: The Web Platform offers building blocks to developers. They can look up the implementation of these building blocks in different browsers
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14:31:02 <PaulG> present+
14:31:15 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but participants never had a lookup of how accessibility is implemented, particularly the accessibility tree
14:31:20 <janina> q?
14:31:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> lola: The information is quite skewed currently as the accessibility tree is overlooked in these developer resources
14:31:55 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... it may be in the DOM and not in the accessibility tree
14:31:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:32:50 <janina> scribe+
14:33:06 <janina> matatk: Asks after ultimate goal of the work
14:33:22 <janina> matatk: would like to see it part of baseline
14:34:23 <janina> matatk: There's general greement about this, but do you agree?
14:34:30 <janina> lola: Yes
14:34:52 <janina> lola: But there are nuances
14:35:15 <janina> lola: Integrating into baseline is problematic for several reasons
14:35:25 <janina> lola: it itself is a simplification of a simplification
14:36:08 <janina> lola: backward compatat also a concern
14:36:55 <janina> lola: I've also expressed this sentiment--but again there are nuances
14:37:11 <janina> lola: For now adding acb to baseline is tabled
14:38:16 <janina> lola: data is more for understanding the support of the feature
14:39:03 <janina> matatk: demonstrating that acb works and provides reliable results might take us to the correct integration
14:39:35 <matatk> scribe+
14:40:36 <matatk> janina: Baseline and BCD relatively new terms to me. The outcome defined in those terms is to me not as interesting as to if this is really successful, there will be some kind of integration relied upon by the wider web accessibility community.
14:41:12 <matatk> ... Very much of use to people developing content on the web. If people are relying on semaphores saying green, yellow, red, and that doesn't incorporate accessibility considerations, that adds an extra layer of checking.
14:41:43 <matatk> ... However the data get presented ultimately, when accessibility is included it'll be of great help to content authors.
14:42:01 <matatk> ... Another area we're working in is supporting people incorporating accessibility into the platform.
14:42:51 <matatk> ... I think we've got some compelling solutions in some areas. We've expanded the list of groups who benefit from accessibility considerations. I think when you have ACD and BCD working well, we will know in which areas we need to focus.
14:43:18 <matatk> ... APA tends to worry about which areas we have not covered in W3C specs, via our horizontal review functions.
14:43:28 <matatk> ... Is that a fair understanding of the two areas where this could help?
14:43:53 <janina> q?
14:43:57 <janina> ack ja
14:44:07 <matatk> lola: Yes, good summary. On the relationship between this dataset and APA, I've been thinking about this, having worked with matatk on TAG.
14:44:33 <matatk> ... I'm confident APA could use the dataset in terms of horizontal review, but it's a bidirectional relationship.
14:45:09 <matatk> ... Only part of this can be tested automatically with browsers. The AT side of this still needs human testers. If we have a core data set and want to test new things, we may impact how we test.
14:45:56 <matatk> ... Starting small, but I have blue sky ideas for this project. A multitude of people providing accessibility expertise for the data, so that it meets more diverse needs. Particularly people who use ATs.
14:45:58 <matatk> q+
14:46:10 <matatk> janina: Thank you; exciting!
14:46:13 <matatk> scribe+
14:46:17 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/20-apa-minutes.html matatk
14:46:57 <matatk> janina: How might this integrate for people creating websites?
14:47:08 <matatk> lola: one of the main goals is to integrate this into the tools web devs use.
14:47:11 <matatk> q?
14:48:08 <matatk> lola: BCD is very effective because it's deeply integrated. E.g. GitHub uses Baseline to ensure new features are safe to use across browsers.
14:48:23 <matatk> lola: We want to go to where they are - integrate into tools, MDN (the premier place for web docs).
14:48:30 <matatk> ... CanIUse etc.
14:49:11 <matatk> ... IDEs as well. IntelliJ suite includes an HTML IDE that looks up BCD on the fly.
14:49:38 <matatk> ... Mozilla are positive on including accessibility data on MDN.
14:50:15 <matatk> ... I think it's feasible, but lots of work ahead.
14:50:15 <matatk> q?
14:50:32 <matatk> lola: Half of this work relies on manual testing.
14:51:04 <matatk> ... So much of the testing for web features is automated. E.g. James Craig from Apple is leading the effort on WPT accessibility testing.
14:51:49 <janina> ack ma
14:52:19 <janina> q?
14:52:44 <janina> matatk: Asks about wider integration of pwd supporting at?
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14:54:05 <janina> lola: phps in the future we can expand on what we already have in aria-at driver
14:54:25 <janina> lola: even it isn't yet release ready yet
14:54:44 <matatk> q?
14:54:50 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:21 <lola> Thank you all for having me!
14:55:28 <matatk> janina: Thank you!
14:55:55 <matatk> zakim, end meeting
14:55:57 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been janina, Fazio, Demelza, Roy_Ruoxi, niklasegger, lola, mike_beganyi, matatk, Ananya, Lionel_Wolberger, stevef, Fredrik, Neha, tsaulter,
14:55:58 <Zakim> ... PaulG
14:55:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:55:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/20-apa-minutes.html Zakim
14:56:05 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, matatk; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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15:37:34 <janina> q?
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