13:54:30 RRSAgent has joined #ixml 13:54:35 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-irc 13:54:41 rrsagent, set logs world visible 13:54:45 john has joined #ixml 13:54:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:54:47 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 13:54:56 Meeting: Invisible XML Community Group 13:54:56 Date: 19 August 2025 13:54:56 Chair: Steven 13:54:58 Scribe: Norm 13:55:02 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:55:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 13:55:33 Steven has joined #ixml 13:56:16 rrsagent, here 13:56:16 See https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-irc#T13-56-16 13:58:58 Present: David, John, Steven, Bethan, Norm 13:59:02 Regrets: Nico 14:01:17 Topic: Accept the minutes of the previous meeting 14:01:20 Previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2025/05/27-ixml-minutes.html 14:01:41 Accepted. 14:01:52 Topic: Review of open actions 14:02:13 Steven: I've completed 2023-10-01-e. 14:02:30 Steven: I've completed 2025-04-29. 14:03:13 ACTION: Steven to review the editorial draft that Norm made earlier. 14:03:28 s/Steven/2025-08-19-a: Steven/ 14:03:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:03:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:03:52 Topic: Status reports 14:04:06 Nothing reported. 14:04:18 Topic: New open issues 14:04:42 John opened #303, Using multiple iXML grammars on ‘pre-processed’ input, https://github.com/invisiblexml/ixml/issues/303 14:05:02 John: It's a mechanism for describing grammars that you would include together by burying grammars inside an XML structure 14:05:26 ... You can then parse by doing one pass that identifies sections that are then parsed by the appropriate grammar. 14:05:42 ... I've done nothing on this since I created the issue. 14:06:08 John: I suggest that everyone read this and I'll see if I can make a version that runs on CoffeePot. I have one that runs on my machine. 14:06:18 ... There's some follow-up from Nico. 14:06:25 Bethan: Perhaps we should wait until Nico is able to be here. 14:06:36 Steven: I did post an email about an issue. 14:07:47 John: If your parse knows about the grammar, I don't see why the processor shouldn't be able to give you a more complete error. 14:08:20 John: If you're treating this as the grammar that's going to be run, then you get this possibility of a more detailed error code. 14:08:26 ... But if it's just any general sentence, I'm not sure. 14:08:50 John: There is a dual nature to our grammars, they're a sentence in our grammar and they have other constraints. 14:09:33 Bethan: This is a static errors. 14:09:48 Steven: We have three categories of errors: syntactic, static, and dynamic. 14:11:17 Some discussion of other errors in the same neighborhood. 14:12:09 We are discussing: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ixml/2025Jun/0016.html 14:12:16 Steven: The grammar excludes this, S06 can never happen. 14:12:33 Present: John, Steven, Bethan, David, Norm, Jim 14:12:53 Norm: I think Steven is right, S06 can't actually occur. 14:13:19 ACTION: 2025-08-19-b Steven to remove S06 from the specification. 14:14:01 s/review the editorial draft that Norm made earlier/pull request #296/ 14:14:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:14:09 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:14:38 s/Steven to pull request/Steven to review pull request/ 14:15:31 Topic: Pragma requirements 14:15:41 Bethan: We're at the last two points, #19 and #20. 14:15:52 19. A pragma’s attachment to a specific syntactic construct must be unambiguous 14:15:52 to software for parsing iXML grammars. 14:16:01 Steven: I still don't know what attachment means 14:16:27 David: Attachment is defined at the very top of the requirements document. 14:16:37 Requirements document: https://github.com/invisibleXML/ixml/blob/master/proposals/pragma_req.md 14:18:17 Norm: I think this boils down to saying that if two processors parse the same grammar, they have to put the pragmas in the same place. 14:18:53 Bethan: We need different processors to minimally produce the same XML structure from the grammar. 14:20:09 Norm: Attempting to paraphrase #19, any processor that parses an iXML grammar must place all of the pragmas in the same place in the XML version of that grammar. 14:20:45 ACTION: 2025-08-19-c: Bethan to attempt to rewrite #19 so that it's clearer. 14:21:20 David: One possible source of ambiguity is that two processors could unambiguously believe that the pragmas went in different places. 14:21:54 John: If we take the XML version of the grammar as definitive, it's very clear where things are. We're getting a little more abstract than the XML structure of the grammar is the definition. 14:22:17 ... The relations between every piece can the be based on the structure of that XML. 14:22:33 Bethan: I don't think there's one that's primary. 14:22:49 John: Making declarations within the XML grammar is very clear. 14:23:03 Bethan: The XML version that a processor produces has to be the same. 14:23:25 Steven: That's the essense of iXML 14:24:17 Bethan: The idea with this requirements document is to nail down the essential things, even the obvious ones. 14:24:56 David: Pragmas seem different than other aspects in that they necessarily have a processor-specific component. In any other construct, it would be self-evident. 14:25:21 Consensus: in principle, this makes sense, but we'd need to see the rewrite. 14:25:57 Steven: I still don't know what exactly we've agreed on. 14:26:25 Bethan agrees to redrafting along the lines discussed today. 14:26:29 Moving on to #20 14:26:37 20. The relationship between a pragma and the construct it attaches to should be 14:26:37 clear and unambiguous to human readers, in both iXML and XML notation. 14:26:52 Consensus: that makes sense 14:27:02 Bethan: Let's try to sort out #19 in email! 14:27:23 Topic: Modularization 14:27:33 Steven: Any progress, John? 14:27:43 John: Some but there's still a ways to go. 14:28:24 Steven: Since I gave the talk, I haven't done anything. 14:28:32 Norm: Steven, can you add the paper to our repo. 14:28:50 ACTION: 2025-08-19-d add the modularization paper to the Invisible XML repository 14:28:56 Topic: An unconference... 14:29:29 Steven: I was really impressed by the talks at Balisage 14:29:51 ... I don't think I have the time and energy to organize another whole conference, but something really light weight seems like it would be doable. 14:30:01 ... I think that would be fun and exciting. 14:30:12 Bethan: I think it would be some work, but less than a full conference. 14:30:32 Steven: We need to write the call, and have some sort of registration system 14:30:49 Bethan: We'd want a web page, a code of conduct, and that kind of thing. 14:30:55 ... There's a little more behind the scenes work. 14:31:10 John: A half day thing? 14:31:35 Steven: A half day would allow overlap between America and Europe. 14:31:45 Norm: That seems good to me. 14:32:02 David: How long would the sessions be? 14:32:20 Steven: I think we should let the speakers ask, up to maybe a maximum of 30 minutes. 14:32:52 John: It's about cross-pollination. 14:33:51 ... We could also let speakers show their grammars and have folks looking over their shoulder. 14:34:12 Bethan: I think a maximum of 15 minutes makes sense. 14:34:21 Norm: I think 30 minutes slots would be good. 14:35:13 Steven: I think we might get a lot more than 8 talks, based on what we've seen so far. 14:35:18 Bethan: Maybe two half days? 14:35:33 Steven: That also sounds good. 14:36:31 John: What about January/February? 14:36:48 Some regrets about the fact that XML Prague has moved to the summer. 14:36:51 Steven: Yes, that might work. 14:37:26 ... I'll try to assemble a discussion document for more folks to comment on. 14:38:11 ACTION: 2025-08-19-e Steven to assemble a discussion document for the conference. 14:38:19 Norm: What teleconference service? 14:38:27 Steven: I think I can use WSI's business account. 14:39:37 s/WSI/CWI/ 14:39:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:39:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:39:54 Topic: Next meeting 14:40:14 Tuesday, 2 September 2025. 14:40:36 Topic: Any other business 14:40:37 None heard 14:40:54 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:40:55 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm 14:43:32 s/19-d add the/19-d: Steven to add the/ 14:43:36 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:43:38 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/19-ixml-minutes.html norm