12:52:12 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:52:16 logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/13-matf-irc 12:52:16 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:52:17 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 12:52:24 Zakim, this is MATF 13 August 2025 12:52:24 got it, JJ 12:52:28 Meeting: MATF 13 August 2025 12:52:33 chair+ 12:52:42 agenda+ Project planning update 12:52:49 agenda+ Page definition poll 12:52:54 agenda+ Accessibility interface poll 12:53:00 agenda+ 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures proposal 12:53:05 agenda+ 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation proposal 12:53:11 agenda+ 2.5.3 Label in Name proposal 12:53:23 agenda+ Planning discussion 12:53:49 present+ 13:00:58 shoobe010 has joined #matf 13:01:09 quintinb has joined #MATF 13:01:18 present+ 13:01:23 pauljadam has joined #matf 13:02:30 Jamie has joined #matf 13:02:38 present+ 13:02:45 So glad this has chatroom has a dark-ish mode 13:03:27 Welcome Steven 13:04:48 shoobe010 introducing his background and work experience - a lot relates to mobile 13:04:56 Welcome! 13:05:26 present+ 13:05:37 present+ 13:06:21 scribe: quintinb 13:07:14 move to the next agendum 13:07:34 move to next agendum 13:07:34 agendum 1 -- Project planning update -- taken up [from JJ] 13:08:00 @JJ You added "the" 13:08:03 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147 13:09:41 JJ walking us through the board and the process. 13:09:41 Note the parent issue view where we can organise elements into "parents" and "children" to make more sense of grouping 13:10:55 q 13:10:57 q+ 13:11:02 ack Jamie 13:12:00 Jamie encouraging everyone to go through some of the 108 unassigned tasks - to be actively moving things forward. Asking @JJ if there is a process. There are a lot of tasks available 13:12:06 JJ no process 13:12:19 188 quintinb :P 13:12:30 Thanks - soz 13:13:01 q+ to do we take them out of the Todo lane? 13:13:23 ack quintinb 13:13:23 quintinb, you wanted to do we take them out of the Todo lane? 13:15:59 How do we notice a good task to take next - what's the process? JJ says there are blocking issues - try to find blocking tasks and definitions to get things moving. Also look at small variation SC's. Also if you're into more difficult ones go for large / medium 13:16:14 Blocking issues: https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/147/views/1?filterQuery=label%3Ablocking 13:16:21 q+ 13:16:37 ack Jamie 13:17:00 Jamie had a timed item that they'll take on for next time 13:18:48 move to next agendum 13:18:48 agendum 2 -- Page definition poll -- taken up [from JJ] 13:18:52 @JJ discussing using the start and end date to see if there are things that perhaps need some extra help 13:19:34 Page definition: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/110#issuecomment-3107776138 13:19:44 Page 13:19:44 A page is a distinct part of a mobile application that presents specific content or functionality and is rendered together with its associated resources. Users navigate between pages to complete actions or access different features. 13:19:44 NOTE 1 13:19:44 Interface elements that rely on the underlying page for context (such as dialogs, modals, navigation menus, and similar components) are typically considered part of that page rather than standalone pages. However, interface elements that significantly change the majority of screen content or function as independent navigational destinations may 13:19:46 be considered separate pages. 13:19:46 EXAMPLE 1 13:19:46 A native banking app's account overview screen that displays account balances, recent transactions and interactive charts. The screen includes native components for all interface elements, all rendered together as a single interface. 13:19:47 EXAMPLE 2 13:19:47 A mobile web banking app's account overview page that displays account balances, recent transactions and interactive charts. The page includes web components for all interface elements, all rendered together in the mobile browser. 13:19:47 EXAMPLE 3 13:19:48 A hybrid banking app's account overview screen that displays account balances, recent transactions and interactive charts. The screen includes native components for account balances and recent transactions, plus web components for interactive charts, all rendered together as a unified interface. 13:23:14 Poll: Do we accept the Page definition proposal? 13:23:30 +1 13:23:34 +1 13:23:35 +1 13:23:35 +1 13:24:31 0 13:25:28 ACTION: Accept page definition proposal 13:25:53 @JJ proposes that we accept - if there are any concerns please get them in sooner rather than later 13:26:40 move to next agendum 13:26:40 agendum 3 -- Accessibility interface poll -- taken up [from JJ] 13:27:14 Where to use accessibility interface? https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/247 13:28:17 Please give a thumbs up / down on GH! 13:28:25 (GitHub) 13:28:40 move to next agendum 13:28:40 agendum 4 -- 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures proposal -- taken up [from JJ] 13:29:23 https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/37#issuecomment-3078462765 13:29:27 Proposed definition for 2.5.1 Pointer Gestures 13:29:27 All functionality that uses multipoint or path-based gestures for operation can be operated with a single pointer without a path-based gesture, unless a multipoint or path-based gesture is essential. 13:29:27 Note 1 13:29:27 This requirement applies to mobile applications that interpret pointer actions (i.e., this does not apply to actions that are required to operate the platform software, operating system, or assistive technology). Each layer is responsible for its own pointer actions only, not for those in an underlying layer. 13:29:29 Note 2 13:29:29 Path-based gestures are gestures that depend on the path of movement, not just the start and end points. Examples of path-based gestures include swiping through carousels where the direction of interaction matters, sliders dependent on the direction of interaction, and custom drawing or pattern gestures. Simple actions like basic scrolling, 13:29:29 single taps, or standard platform gestures (such as pull-to-refresh) are not considered path-based gestures. 13:32:11 q+ 13:32:34 @JJ can we execute this action or is there more to consider? 13:32:37 ack Joe_Humbert 13:33:04 (copy/pasted note has changed slightly in version of July 23rd) 13:33:18 Joe_Humbert Do notes 1 and 2 need tweaking? Is platform software different from platform accessibility features? 13:33:42 shoobe012 has joined #matf 13:33:55 Computer failed overall, just catching back up. 13:35:19 q+ 13:35:26 ack Joe_Humbert 13:35:29 @JJ does the scrolling action in a scrollview count as a layer? Do we need more examples 13:35:45 Joe_Humbert is the mention of layer helpful? Is that common language? 13:36:32 q+ 13:36:41 ack pauljadam 13:36:51 agreed with Joe_Humbert on his questions. 13:37:24 pauljadam the part about assistive touch seems strange. There's nothing about that in the success criteria? Does that absolve the developer from supporting it? 13:38:10 pauljadam we're just doing developer guidance - the developers need to add extra. This note creates an exception 13:39:05 pauljadam this note may be overly repetitive 13:39:17 Keep or remove note 3? 13:39:24 remove 13:39:27 remove 13:39:44 0 13:39:55 0 13:39:59 0 13:40:34 move to next agendum 13:40:34 agendum 5 -- 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation proposal -- taken up [from JJ] 13:40:44 github.com/w3c/matf/issues/38 13:41:07 Newest proposal: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/38#issuecomment-3108069035 13:41:14 Proposed definition for 2.5.2 Pointer Cancellation 13:41:14 For functionality that can be operated using a single pointer, at least one of the following is true: 13:41:14 No Down-Event 13:41:14 The down-event of the pointer is not used to execute any part of the function; 13:41:15 Abort or Undo 13:41:15 Completion of the function is on the up-event, and a mechanism is available to abort the function before completion or to undo the function after completion; 13:41:15 Up Reversal 13:41:16 The up-event reverses any outcome of the preceding down-event; 13:41:16 Essential 13:41:16 Completing the function on the down-event is essential. 13:41:17 Note 1 13:41:17 This requirement applies to mobile applications that interpret pointer actions (i.e., this does not apply to actions that are required to operate the platform software, operating system, or assistive technology). Each layer is responsible for its own pointer actions only, not for those in an underlying layer. 13:41:17 Note 2 13:41:18 Functions that emulate a keyboard or numeric keypad key press are considered essential. 13:41:18 Example 13:41:18 Examples of essential functionality include features required for meeting system requirements (such as waking a device from sleep, power management controls, and emergency functions). 13:42:11 pauljadam is this the layer part? Or is this the notes? 13:42:38 I think the layer part os confusing 13:42:41 is 13:43:07 JJ layers are added in WCAG2ICT 13:43:07 q+ 13:44:34 ack Joe_Humbert 13:45:02 Joe_Humbert after reading through some of these. It might apply to closed source applications like kiosks. 13:45:14 Joe_Humbert perhaps layer is not necessary for us 13:45:31 I think folks are confused on what user agent means so that could be clarified rather than talking about layers? 13:45:33 WCAG2ICT editor's draft: https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#pointer-cancellation 13:46:10 pauljadam +1 for definitions. We just did a page def. Do we need more unique defs? 13:46:35 Layer is not defined in WCAG2ICT even though it's introduced there: https://w3c.github.io/wcag2ict/#glossary-items-with-specific-guidance 13:46:38 q+ 13:46:48 User Agent draft: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/225#issuecomment-3164475922 13:47:26 pauljadam 13:47:28 ack pauljadam 13:48:24 pauljadam I think when you're applying wcag to mobile user agent is more confusing. What is the user agent, the OS? What worries me is that assistive technology is a user agent, I think it's something that loads the page 13:48:32 is there a pure native app? I mean one with nmo webviews? 13:48:35 q+ 13:48:44 ack Joe_Humbert 13:49:11 Joe_Humbert I added assistive technology (AT) because it's "any software the retrieves and presents content" 13:49:21 pauljadam the browser retries the web page 13:49:39 *retrieves (soz)] 13:50:19 pauljadam for an AT to be a user agent we'd need something like VoiceOver without Safari 13:51:15 Joe_Humbert this is why I left it in. It's because WCAG 2.2 does reference AT as a User Agent 13:51:33 pauljadam They "help" 13:51:56 pauljadam I've never seen AT that retrieves and renders content 13:52:11 Joe_Humbert we'd need to ask why it was there 13:52:50 move to next agendum 13:52:50 agendum 6 -- 2.5.3 Label in Name proposal -- taken up [from JJ] 13:52:53 @quintinb leveled up typing skills! 13:53:26 Latest draft: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/39#issuecomment-2809505474 13:53:42 New draft will be proposed 20 August: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues/39#issuecomment-2962999484 13:53:48 @quintonb super typer 13:54:24 quintinbnb super typer 13:54:35 :D 13:54:44 quintinb 13:54:49 move to next agendum 13:54:49 agendum 7 -- Planning discussion -- taken up [from JJ] 13:55:43 q+ 13:56:03 ack Jamie 13:56:52 we also need to go through feedback from First Public Working Draft to make sure its all addressed before a new publication 13:58:28 Jamie Having a proposed milestone date could be helpful for planning backwards. We have several items ready for publication, but I would think that having a date to get something out (e.g. end of October) - one of the things that might help is setting a date could get use there. Even working backwards from a date could help. Having an idea of 13:58:28 timeline for the defintions would help us move things to done. And it could help us identify where we need more people involved. I think everyone can contribute and we understand time frames. Having a timeframe is a good starting point. 13:59:56 @JJ will check in with Tania when she's back 14:00:09 Bye bye! 14:00:35 Zakim, list participants 14:00:35 As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, Jamie, pauljadam, shoobe 14:00:43 rrsagent, make minutes 14:00:44 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/13-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:01:58 regrets+ TimGravemaker 14:02:01 regrets+ JonGibbins 14:02:03 rrsagent, make minutes 14:02:04 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/13-matf-minutes.html JJ 14:39:05 shoobe016 has joined #matf 14:39:10 shoobe016 has left #matf 15:12:52 rrsagent, bye 15:12:52 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2025/08/13-matf-actions.rdf : 15:12:52 ACTION: Accept page definition proposal [1] 15:12:52 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2025/08/13-matf-irc#T13-25-28 15:12:57 zakim, bye 15:12:57 leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Joe_Humbert, quintinb, Jamie, pauljadam, shoobe 15:12:57 Zakim has left #matf