13:18:22 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag2ict
13:18:26 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-wcag2ict-irc
13:18:26 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:18:27 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:18:28 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
13:18:28 <Zakim> agenda cleared
13:18:36 <ChrisLoiselle> chair:  Mary Jo Mueller , Chris Loiselle
13:18:50 <ChrisLoiselle> meeting:  WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:18:56 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
13:18:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
13:19:05 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:19:05 <Zakim> ok, ChrisLoiselle
13:19:21 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda+ Announcements
13:19:35 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda+ Triage for AG WG comments on the draft
13:19:49 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda+TF review of the WCAG2Mobile document
13:19:52 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:30:56 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:53:26 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
13:58:56 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:00:20 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim, clear agenda
14:00:20 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:00:27 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + announcements
14:01:00 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Issue 752 - 2.1.1 Keyboard: Precondition doesn't include non-web documents (this is crucial for the publication)
14:01:14 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Issue 753 - 1.4.4 Resize text: EN 301 549 has additional note (this can be put off until later)
14:01:28 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + Triage for AG WG comments on the draft
14:01:47 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda + TF review of the WCAG2Mobile document
14:01:50 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:02:18 <bbailey9> bbailey9 has joined #wcag2ict
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14:03:04 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:05 <bailey> bailey has joined #wcag2ict
14:03:15 <bailey> precent+
14:03:22 <bailey> present+
14:03:30 <Mike_Pluke> present+
14:04:41 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
14:05:00 <ChrisLoiselle> regrets: Phil D.
14:06:10 <ChrisLoiselle> scribe: ChrisLoiselle
14:06:15 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:06:26 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/752
14:06:31 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/753
14:06:42 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/638
14:07:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Announcement , we did introduce WCAG2ICT the issue https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/750 to review
14:07:43 <bailey> q+ to ask where to add typos
14:07:59 <ChrisLoiselle> We may be delayed per what we are introducing today.
14:08:35 <ChrisLoiselle> Daniel may be needed to included or Kevin or Shawn on ready for publish GitHub template
14:09:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Review to end  upcoming Tuesday. Changes may cause a restart or delay.
14:09:29 <ChrisLoiselle> Communication is being drafted , working with Shawn H. and Tasmin.
14:10:05 <ChrisLoiselle> zakim , take up next
14:10:14 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:10:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- announcements -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:10:18 <bailey> q+
14:10:28 <maryjom> ack bailey
14:10:28 <Zakim> bailey, you wanted to ask where to add typos and to
14:10:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Can Tasmin do the pulls?
14:10:44 <bailey> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/751
14:10:45 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: She may.
14:11:06 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I submitted some typo edits.
14:11:11 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:11:23 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: She did have questions on what you submitted.
14:11:38 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:12:05 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:12:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 752 - 2.1.1 Keyboard: Precondition doesn't include non-web documents (this is crucial for the publication) -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:12:22 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/752
14:13:29 <bailey> ack me
14:13:45 <bailey> q+ to say i expected to see sub headings
14:14:21 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Per EN , it reads as written. A statement from WCAG2ICT should say that non-web documents applies directly as written.
14:14:24 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:14:26 <bailey> ack me
14:14:26 <Zakim> bailey, you wanted to say i expected to see sub headings
14:15:09 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I thought we were going to have sub headings on sub headings to distinguish between non-web documents and non-web software?
14:15:53 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: We haven't included page title scenario, however we could introduce it.
14:16:17 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: This would be place to do it.
14:16:31 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:16:46 <maryjom> Under a heading "Applying SC 2.1.1 Keyboard to Non-Web Documents" state: This applies directly as written, and as described in Intent from Understanding Success Criterion 2.1.1.
14:17:31 <maryjom> Also make sure we have a different heading "Applying SC 2.1.1 Keyboard to Non-Web Software"
14:18:21 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: proposed edits in IRC.
14:18:30 <bailey> +1
14:19:20 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Update 2.1.1 Keyboard as stated in IRC above to address issue 752
14:19:34 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:19:40 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:20:07 <bailey> +1
14:20:13 <GreggVan> GreggVan has joined #wcag2ict
14:20:18 <maryjom> +1
14:20:25 <GreggVan> +1
14:20:29 <ChrisLoiselle> RESOLUTION: Update 2.1.1 Keyboard as stated in IRC above to address issue 752
14:20:45 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:20:50 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:20:50 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Issue 753 - 1.4.4 Resize text: EN 301 549 has additional note (this can be put off until later) -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:20:58 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/753
14:21:46 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Is this needed in WCAG2ICT?
14:22:18 <maryjom> EN 301 549 has this note for non-web documents in 1.4.4 Resize Text - NOTE: It is best practice to use only fonts that allow for scaling without loss of quality (e.g. pixelized presentation). This applies in particular to embedded fonts
14:22:50 <Mike_Pluke> q+
14:22:50 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: I think it is a good note. Old fonts that pixelates would be impacted. If there are fonts that are impacted, we are assuming it doesn't exist anymore.
14:22:54 <bailey> q+ to ask why not apps?
14:23:17 <maryjom> ack Mike_Pluke
14:23:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Not sure what happens on other platforms.
14:24:06 <ChrisLoiselle> Mike: Some systems may not have scaling. I don't know of practical systems that pixelate. It is useful if it does apply.
14:24:07 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:24:51 <maryjom> ack bailey
14:24:51 <Zakim> bailey, you wanted to ask why not apps?
14:24:51 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg and Mike: I'd recommend keeping in EN.
14:25:09 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Would we apply it to software and documents?
14:25:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: I think it should go in both places.
14:25:44 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: More in documents compared to software
14:25:57 <maryjom> POLL: Should we add this note into WCAG2ICT?
14:26:00 <bailey> +1
14:26:03 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:26:17 <ChrisLoiselle> +1 , think it helps clarify use case.
14:26:22 <GreggVan> present+
14:26:25 <GreggVan> +1
14:27:04 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Add the EN 301 549 note and apply it to both non-web documents and software.
14:27:28 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:27:28 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Triage for AG WG comments on the draft -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:29:19 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: 6 thumbs up on review. No comments yet.
14:29:39 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/750
14:29:41 <bailey> q+ to ask about "view"
14:29:54 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Please continue to review.
14:29:59 <maryjom> ack bailey
14:29:59 <Zakim> bailey, you wanted to ask about "view"
14:30:04 <ChrisLoiselle> agenda?
14:30:40 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: We don't use view
14:30:48 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Ok.
14:31:00 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: You can test views but it is aggregated up.
14:32:30 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Daniel copied what was in editor's draft. It was forked in to a publication repo.
14:33:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I'm not sure people would know to comment on branch
14:34:22 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: If people were to comment on W3C Group Note (staging) it , https://2025-note--wcag2ict.netlify.app/ it would not be able to PR'd to editor's note
14:34:55 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: So my PR on editor's draft may not be a one for one against the staging document issue 750 was based on.
14:36:20 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: I wanted to make sure I was on the correct rendered version on https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/751/files
14:37:10 <ChrisLoiselle> https://deploy-preview-751--wcag2ict.netlify.app/
14:39:31 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: References https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fwcag2ict-22%2F&doc2=https%3A%2F%2F2025-note--wcag2ict.netlify.app%2F#success-criteria-problematic-for-closed-functionality
14:40:07 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Note is stated backwards within hardware.
14:40:24 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: Need PR on editor's draft
14:40:36 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Never seen a pull request push .
14:42:05 <ChrisLoiselle> Note 1
14:42:05 <ChrisLoiselle> Contrast requirements for hardware are out of scope for WCAG2ICT (and this success criterion).
14:42:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Note 4
14:42:13 <ChrisLoiselle> Hardware requirements for contrast are out of scope for WCAG2ICT (and this success criterion).
14:43:27 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Consistency is key on phrasing.
14:44:18 <ChrisLoiselle> Gregg: Contrast requirements for hardware should be phrasing.
14:45:02 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: SC Problematic for Closed - Change note for 1.4.11 to be what is found in  1.4.3.
14:45:18 <ChrisLoiselle> +1
14:45:19 <maryjom> "Contrast requirements for hardware are out of scope for WCAG2ICT (and this success criterion)."
14:45:38 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:45:54 <Mike_Pluke> +1
14:45:54 <bailey> +1
14:46:10 <GreggVan> +1
14:46:12 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: SC Problematic for Closed - Change note for 1.4.11 to be what is found in  1.4.3.
14:47:02 <ChrisLoiselle> Mary Jo: We will get those three changes.
14:47:28 <ChrisLoiselle> Bruce: Will review 751 PR to include the resolution for 1.4.11 and 1.4.3 phrasing.
14:47:29 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:47:42 <ChrisLoiselle> Zakim, take up next
14:47:42 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- TF review of the WCAG2Mobile document -- taken up [from ChrisLoiselle]
14:48:13 <maryjom> scribe+ maryjom
14:48:24 <ChrisLoiselle> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/638
14:48:46 <maryjom> chris: WCAG2Mobile: Draft feedback on the use of "view"
14:49:13 <ChrisLoiselle> https://w3c.github.io/wcag3/guidelines/#dfn-view
14:49:17 <GreggVan> q+
14:49:22 <maryjom> There's a long conversation in the issue about concerns about using "view"
14:49:52 <maryjom> s/There's/...There's/
14:49:58 <ChrisLoiselle> q?
14:50:13 <maryjom> ...There's concern with using in the guidance a definition that is under development
14:51:10 <maryjom> gregg: In WCAG 3, if we can make the definition of "view" work, we'll be using "web page" and "view".  WCAG2ICT shouldn't use "view" because, in WCAG 2.2 there is no "view" defined.
14:52:00 <maryjom> ...they are using "view" without really knowing for sure that it will work and which won't be proven until WCAG 3 is further along and tests the concept and definition.
14:53:08 <maryjom> ...Since the WCAG2Mobile is also going into web on mobile, there use of "view" when applied to web content isn't par of WCAG 2.2
14:54:58 <maryjom> ChrisLoiselle: Agree with Gregg. Though they are really trying to pull in the capabilities in mobile for titling a view, it doesn't seem ready to definitively require it. Do we need to open an issue in WCAG2Mobile?
14:55:25 <maryjom> GreggVan: The differing interpretation in WCAG2Mobile causes some confusion.
14:56:06 <maryjom> ...also that they have their own WCAG2Mobile document it is confusing when the advice differs as a whole.
14:57:57 <bailey> q+
14:58:10 <maryjom> ChrisLoiselle: The problem is bigger than use of the term "view". It's worth filing an issue on this specifically, but think there needs to be a conversation with the facilitators regarding the broader concerns.
14:58:20 <maryjom> ack bailey
14:58:50 <maryjom> bruce: We aren't adding a definition of "view" to WCAG2ICT, right?
14:59:03 <maryjom> maryjom: No, no plans to do that
14:59:43 <bailey> q+ to say i think this is about wcag2mobile not 3
14:59:56 <maryjom> Gregg: This is a future state, so since WCAG doesn't use the term "view" it's problematic to use it in WCAG2Mobile.
14:59:56 <GreggVan> q-
15:00:42 <maryjom> ChrisLoiselle: The WCAG2Mobile isn't enforceable - none of the current standards use this term.
15:01:47 <maryjom> Gregg: EN 301 549 can't pick up new terms used in WCAG2Mobile
15:01:58 <maryjom> ...at least not this late in the process.
15:03:46 <maryjom> present+
15:03:53 <ChrisLoiselle> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-wcag2ict-minutes.html ChrisLoiselle
15:04:08 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
15:04:08 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been bailey, Mike_Pluke, GreggVan, maryjom
15:04:11 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
15:04:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
15:04:17 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
15:04:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wcag2ict
15:04:25 <maryjom> present+ chris
15:04:43 <maryjom> rrsagent, make minutes
15:04:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2025/08/07-wcag2ict-minutes.html maryjom
15:05:00 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
15:05:00 <RRSAgent> I see no action items